merit badges and the internet

[MollieDuke 10]

Looking for your thoughts on using the internet for resources for merit badges.

 

Examples: If the merit badge requirement says: "use a book....." and the boy uses the internet, personally I would not pass them as the requirement specifically states BOOK.

 

Also, in the genealogy merit badge for example:

 

Example: My family's genealogy is listed incorrectly online. If a child came to me with an internet printout of a family tree he found online not having done the required documentary research himself proving the tree, I wouldn't pass him because the MB book asks them to do research in the public records/cemeteries/and such. It doesn't say pull off the internet.......and because mine is posted by varioius sources incorrectly, I know the internet genealogy is fallible.

 

Thoughts on this internet dilemma?

[Bob White 20]

Isn't any single source subject to error. A book can have a typo as easily as an Internet site. I would think the source of the root information is what is important.

 

If the requirement says use a book and the scout uses the Internet, he has not met the requirement.

 

If the requirement says 'to go to the library and research...', well one of the the research resources used by many librtaries is the Internet. If the scout went to the library and used its resources, whatever they were, it would seem to me he met the requirements as stated in the handbook.

 

As a counselor you can require no more, and no less, than the stated requirements.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I think much like an ax(e) or knife, the INTERNET should be regarded as a tool that fits in well in some situations and not in others.

You have already identified one problem, the INTERNET is not infallible (see Pierre Salinger and the Long island airline crash) Scouts who rely on the INTERNET for requirements and sources of information may find both dated.

As a merit badge counselor you are to hold them to the requirements and its up to them to fulfill them with the resources available, and meet the requirements.

BTW, before some one else asks it, what if the Internet is accessed through the library?

 

Arrghhh Bob White beat me too it, but if we both ask the same question, it may be a valid one(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[evmori 11]

Both OGE & Bob are correct. A merit badge counselor can't add or subtract from a requirement.

Question - If the requirement states "use a book" and the Scout uses an e-book or on-line book, has the requirement been met?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[KoreaScouter 13]

Counselors need to use their judgment (assumes they're trained and understand what they're supposed to be doing). Every requirement has an intent behind it. For example, if the requirement is intended to get the Scout to conduct research outside the pamphlet or his handbook, it may not matter if that research is at the internet kiosk at the library, or on a bookshelf. On the other hand, it may matter -- depends on the badge, and the requirement.

 

Sure, counselors can't add to or subtract from requirements, but there's still grey areas. When a written report is required, is that handwritten or computer-typed? How long a report? That's just one example, and why the initial meeting between a Scout and his counselor is so important. That's where they reach an understanding of how the requirements are expected to be met.

 

I have always recommended meritbadge.com as an online resource. But, I've noticed lately that their updates haven't kept pace with BSA Requirements changes. All references that aren't official should be used with a caveat...

 

KS

[Be_Prepared 10]

This may be a non-issue. What merit badges have a requirement that says "use a book..." Only one or two that I'm aware of even mention books.

 

American Heritage has somes options: "read a biography.." and "read a historical novel..." The intent is to use a book, but an online book could meet the requiremnt.

 

Reading has a requirement to select 6 books from the library and read them, and to select books to read from another source. This one requires books.

 

There may be a few more. Most that have to do with researching something just state the requirement as "Research..." or "Gather research on..." without stating the methods.

 

I'm just referring to the printed requirements, though, not what is in the merit badge pamphlets as additional material.

 

 

[MollieDuke 10]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I must admit, I hadn't thought of e-books at all. Good point! Answers anyone?.......

 

Actually, I used the word book arbitrarily, but it illustrated my point. I guess I just feel that if we all follow the book, then we're all doing the same thing.

 

As for reports, any standard rules of thumb out there????? One page, one paragraph, a doctoral thesis???

[EagleInKY 14]

I tell my scouts that the length has to be enough to cover the requirements. For example, in Mammal Study there's a "write a simple history of a non-game mammal". It goes on to tell what needs to be contained in the report. I've seen scouts turn these in with 1 or 2 paragraphs, while others fill a couple of pages.

 

Regarding typing vs. writing. I give them this simple rule - I must be able to read it. I can read typing with no problem. If I can't read their handwriting, I can't sign it off. They're taking the risk if they decide to write it by hand.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

MollieDuke,

 

Of course, books and other "traditional" printed materials are not infallible either. I am sure that the the percentage of incorrect information is higher on the Internet as a whole than it would be in books and magazines published by major publishing houses. That's because it's so easy to just stick something on the Internet, and so easy to find it, as opposed to actually having to rev up a printing press, or go to the library or bookstore. However, if a merit badge requirement simply says to read an article, for example, there is no reason why an "article" on a web site does not qualify, even though it is quite possible that the information may be incorrect. By the same token, I think the answer to Ed's question is yes, a "book" includes an e-book or online book, but I think there has to be some common understanding of what that means. I have seen e-books and online books and they all have chapters and a "lot" (whatever that means) of pages. If people start posting what they call an e-book but you look at it and it's the equivalent of 4 typewritten pages, then I'd say a Scout who tries to use that should expect the counselor to question it.

 

Interestingly, I looked at the requirements for the Reading MB at usscouts.org where they have recent changes spelled out, and the major changes that were effective Jan. 1, 2004 have taken Internet-related issues into account. Requirement 1, which is as much about knowing how to use a library and its resources as it is about reading books, says you have to find the six library books on the "shelves." So, no e-books there. The word "shelves" was not in there before, and I have a feeling the Internet is part of the reason. So, requirement 1 is NOT about the Internet. Requirement 2, however, can be about the Internet, it specifically mentions using the Internet ("with your parent's permission) as one of the permitted sources. That also is new as of 2004. New optional requirement 3(b) is ALL about the Internet, and if you do that one, you (again) have to your parent's permission and also must discuss "safety rules for using the Internet" with the counselor or librarian. However, I'm not sure about 3(a), it says use a "catalog" and "order form" which I would take to include an online catalog, and an order form filled-out online and printed out. However, given 2 and 3(b), I suspect the writer was not thinking about online catalogs in 3(a) because there is nothing about parental permission. So I would probably suggest a boy get a printed catalog even though the requirement does not specifically require it.

 

By the way, MollieDuke, I looked at the Genealogy MB requirements and it seems to me that the writers have already taken the Internet into account there as well. Req. 6 requires the Scout to "Tell how you would evaluate genealogical information" and requirement 8a (optional) says "Tell how the development of computers is affecting the world of genealogy," so I'd think that in either or both of these, a counselor might expect to hear some mention of the relative risks of relying on the accuracy of information on the Internet.

 

Also, when you talk about an internet printout of a family tree he found online, I don't think that fulfills requirement 1 ("Begin a pedigree chart with yourself and fill it in as far as you can at the beginning of your project. Add any additional names, dates, or places that you find.") -- even if it is completely accurate and the Scout presents original, certified proof of every fact. The requirement clearly means a chart prepared by the Scout (though he could USE information from a web site.) Now, assuming the chart HAS been prepared by the Scout, the requirement about "proof" (number 5) does not necessarily exclude something found on the Internet. It says "Obtain at least one genealogical document showing proof of some information on your pedigree chart or family group records. This document may be located in your home, a courthouse, an archive, or library, etc." "Etc." is a pretty big word, as is the word "Archive." I think the key here is the "document" and the presence of some reason to believe it is authentic. In other words if there is an Internet site with the actual birth certificate, naturalization certificate, marriage license, etc., and you print it out, why wouldn't that count? But it would have to be an image of the document itself, not just the words on it, so (to my knowledge) it would probably have to be a scanned document in .pdf form. I'd also think you would want it to be a web site or database that is maintained by SOME organization or entity that has a reputation for keeping records, not Wally'sHouseOfDubiousFacts.com. And, only "some" information on the chart must be "proved," so even if the boy got a bad piece of info from Aunt Mabel or SmithFamilyInAmerica.org and put it on the chart, but proved some other fact on the chart, it's still ok.

 

I think.

 

[frank10 12]

What about requirement number seven of Citizenship In The Community -

Select a city, county, or school problem or issue under consideration from the local newspaper or news broadcast and write a letter expressing your views to the mayor, administrator, or school board president. Show this letter and any response to your counselor.

 

Can the scout use Email for this?

 

NJCub - What if I keep my E-books on an E-shelf? (Grin) Would that be E-nuff?

[evmori 11]

I take letter to mean snail mail not e-mail.

[MollieDuke 10]

I agree with the previous post that "letter" means snail mail hand written/typed formal letters. The word email is so commonly used and has been for the past years that if it was assumed to be email, it would have said "send a letter" or email which it does not.

 

I think the intent of some of these badges is to introduce the boys to certain types of arenas they are unfamiliar with which this is one example. You can usually get an official's snail mail address from public record. They may or may not have a published email. Thus, I think this is generally the best way to contact them. While email is an acceptable choice and I've written my Congressmen using email myself, you may not be able to get an email for the local city council people. Thus, snail mail to the mayor's office will arrive.

 

I also think in "Citizenship in the World" badge where it says to get the rates of exchange from the newspaper--that means newspaper not internet for a reason. The pamphlet discusses the Wall Street Journal and I think this is to introduce the boys to the financial sections of a newspaper especially the famous Wall Street Journal. Granted, the information is the same, but perusing the "Journal" and searching for the currency exchange rates is not exactly the same as typing "currency exchange rates" into Google.

 

You never know when a boy will find something that intrigues him when he slows down and peruses something instead of that instant gratification of a search engine---at least that's my experience with my 2 boys has been.

[Hunt 11]

One point on "snail mail"--right now, it's best not to use snail mail to write to the US Congress. Because of the anthrax scare, it takes forever, and the boy may not get a response. He can write the letter and fax it, or send it by e-mail--he can write it as a formal letter, and then attach it to an e-mail.

[evmori 11]

A response isn't part of the requirement. And time isn't a factor, either. The purpose is to be able to express oneself in the written word to a person of authority.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[VH_50 10]

There's something to be said for minutely studying the wording of this or that requirement for evidence of intent, but we should also keep in mind that inertia is a powerful thing . . . references to "catalogs" and "mail" may simply be leftovers that nobody has an elegant alternative for.

 

I haven't seen letter-size carbon paper in use for 25 years, but we still put "cc:" at the bottom of business letters. :-)