another BOR question

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"What has been stated is that a requirement can't be taken away once marked off."

 

Why? Oscars can be revoked as can Nobel Prizes. If the requirement was marked off as the result of malfeasance, misfeasance, or nonfeasance why should it be allowed to stand?

 

" There are however other ways to block further advancement of either scout until the situation has been remedied."

 

Not from what Bob White and others have long stated. According to Bob White, et al if the requirements are checked off, you can't decide to hold back advancement because you don't like the way that they have been accomplished. If you start creating reasons to hold back the Scout then you are really no better than the person who signed off on things that weren't done.

[Bob White 20]

What is the deal about what "Bob White says"!

Have you folks even bothered to look at what the BSA advancement rules say?

 

This is not about what I think, it's about understanding and following the scouting program.

 

Fog you don't know or understand adnancement.

 

Silvershark, no scout is required to "master the skill" before he passes a requirement.

 

Ed..well it's pointless so nevermind.

 

Could you folks just stop the rhetoric until you learn the prograsm and then ask some questions about what you still don't understand rather than try to create your own rules.

 

And please lests not look for ways to block advancement, thats not what a scoutleader's goal is. Instead get trained and learn how to administer a program.

 

Thanks,

Bob White

 

 

[Bob White 20]

I really have to stop dashing off mesages as I am dashing out the door. My apologies to those who cringe at my typos, it is 90% rushing. The last post should have read...

 

What is the deal about what "Bob White says"!

Have you folks even bothered to look at what the BSA advancement rules say?

 

This is not about what I think, it's about understanding and following the scouting program.

 

FOG you don't know or understand advancement.

 

Silvershark, no scout is required to "master the skill" before he passes a requirement.

 

Ed..well it's pointless so never mind.

 

Could you folks just stop the rhetoric until you learn the programs? Then ask some questions about what you still don't understand rather than try to create your own rules.

 

And please let's not look for ways to block advancement, thats not what a scoutleader's goal is. Instead get trained and learn how to administer a program.

 

Thanks,

Bob White

 

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

Bob,

Pointless!!!! Wow! Not very Scoutlike are we???

 

Please enlighten those of us who don't know the advancement guidelines as well as you. Please reer us to the book & page where we can find where it says "once a requirement is signed off, it can't be reversed".

 

 

Pointless!!!! I would ask for an apology but you won't! Cheap shot Bob!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Let me check . . .

 

A Scout is . . . . nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope . . . not one of those is Snippy.

[Bob White 20]

Allow me to edit one line I said.

 

I was correct in saying that it is not the role of the BOR to test or retest the Scout on the requiresment. That is true.

 

I said that the board can ask the scout how and when the requirement was met. That is true.

 

I said that the scout knows if he passed the reqirement or not. That is true.

 

I said once the book is signed there is no going back. That was an incorrect statement. I should have said that "once the requirement is met, and the book is signed there is no going back". I was in error for not including the first half of the statement.

 

If the scout did not do as the book required then the BOR can require that he complete it prior to approving the advancement. We are not talking about retesting but only as to how and when he completed specific requirements. The greater problem here is still with the person who signed the book and allowed the scout to believe he had fulfilled his requirement, than with the scout himself. This does not hold true for Merit Badges, where once the MB counselor has signed off the badge is earned and cannot be re-tested or denied.

 

Ed, Pages 28 through 30 of the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual for starters.

 

FOG,

Do not take the position of judging any poster's character other than your own. Remember most of us know you by the other names you have used and how you have been suspended from this board for your inappropriate behavior and language. We also know that you stole another persons identity to gain access to this board again. You remain here due to what seems to be our nearly endless patience with you. But if you continue to judge others character, when you come to this board with such a questionable amount of your own, it will cause grief to no one but you.

 

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Ah Mr. White, again with the "FOG," you show your character by your actions and your comments.

 

As for the rest of your comments, to respond in your fashion, perhaps you need to check your meds because your paranoia is showing.

 

As for your other comments . . . "I said that the scout knows if he passed the reqirement or not. That is true. "

 

Not always. "Did you learn the bowline?" "I dunno . . . I tied some knots but I don't remember what they are.?"

 

"I said once the book is signed there is no going back. That was an incorrect statement."

 

Thank you.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"Pointless!!!! Wow! Not very Scoutlike are we???"

 

I could comment but I won't say anything except, "Odd, isn't it?"

[silver-shark 10]

"Silvershark, no scout is required to "master the skill" before he passes a requirement."

 

Good evening Bob,

 

"Fully mastered a skill" was not created by me, but by the people responsible for writing "The Scoutmaster Handbook".

 

I'm not in the business of looking for ways to punish a scout, but I'm also not willing to reward them for clear violations of the Scout Law or Scout Oath until a situation has been fully remedied.

 

YIS

 

Kris

[Bob White 20]

Silvershark,

I believe what the SM handbook says is Demonstrate that he has fully mastered the skill to the level expected. There is a big difference.

 

Who has asked you to reward anyone for violating the Oath and Law? No one on this board. But when a scout demonstrates he has completed the requirement the leader acknowledges that fact and records the advancement. If a scout shows that he can tie a clove hitch correctly you don't judge his scout spirit before you record the advancement. On the same hand you are not required to sign scout spirit for a scout who is a bully.

 

But we have posters who want to determine advancement by age or maturity, neither of which are requirements for advancement.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"But we have posters who want to determine advancement by age or maturity,"

 

Ah-ha! There we have it. The inability to distinguish between desire and execution.

 

I want want to date Claudia Schiffer but I haven't done it yet. Evidently, Bob White would consider that I have dated Ms Schiffer simply because I want to.

 

Many of us would like to see an age requirement but since there isn't one, we talk about it and advance boys who have learned little and are ready for less.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Again we see it differenntly FOG. It is not the inablity to see the difference, it is the acute ability to recognize the difference, and see the folly in the wishing.

 

The Scouting program is not what you or anyone wishes it could be. Scouting is what the BSA has determined it to be. Only in spending time and effort learning and using the BSA methods, skills, and programs can you deliver a real scouting program to the youth of the community.

 

Wishing it to be something else is fine for when you are asleep and dreaming. Scouts need leaders who are awake and understand the scouting program.

 

The leaders who are the topic of this thread need to revisit training and learn how to manage the advancement program.

 

Others need to consider spending less time in imagining advancement policies and procedures that do not exist and learn how to do the real life scouting program, for the good of the scouts they serve.

 

Bob White

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Still with the "FOG," your rudeness astounds even me.

 

You are fond of pointing out how much Scouting has changed since 1911 and how much the requirements have changed. Do you believe that these changes came about because the Angel B-P came down with tablets of gold with the new program written on it? All change starts with an idea, likely many ideas for change were shared over brandy and a cigar.

 

You keep living in your fixed world where all good things come from Texas and the rest of us will stay here in reality.

[Bob White 20]

I know exactly how they evolved FOG. Active Volunteers who have successful scoutiung programs are invited onto national committees that constantly review all aspects of the scouting program.

 

As these committees determine that changes need to be made in areas that are no longer producing the expected results or where more effective methods have been developed elsewhere in the real world the committedeveolps an action plan.

 

These plans are then tested in various regions of the country to fine tune them and test their results. While this happens budgets are determined and resources are developed to create a distribution of the new methods throughout the national program.

 

Or did you think they came about by wishing them on an internet bulletin board?

 

Bob White

 

 

[silver-shark 10]

Bob

 

When I see words like "fully mastered", and "at the level expected." in the same sentence, I find them to be somewhat related and dependent on one another. Especially since "fully" and "mastered" have such strong definitions.

 

I for one don't see that "level expected" to be tying a knot while looking at the book. I don't see this to be any level of mastery, let alone a level of full mastery. Either they know the skill or they don't.

 

If they only know the skill by doing it with the book, they're no better off than not knowing how to do it at all. Time can be very precious when it comes to some of these skills, particularly the First Aid ones or the bowline knot. They may not have the time to use the book in these cases. I used to have an history teacher that always let us use our books on tests. The problem was that there would never be enough time to use it for all of them.