Eagle? Aaaargh!

[Eagle74 10]

Maybe I should more properly put this under "Issues and Politics", but here goes anyway. (Have you already picked up on the sarcastic tone?)

 

Eagle candidate "does/completes" numerous merit badges within last 6 weeks before his 18th birthday (completing most within the last few days) - including some difficult ones like Family Life, Communications, Personal Management, Citizenship in Nation - even switches counselors on one at 10:00pm the night before his 18th bday to complete with an "easier" counselor. Must be led by the hand step-by-step to submit acceptable project paperwork and planning; then rushes through a project completed less than 1 week before 18th bday. Wakes up Scoutmaster at 11:00pm night before 18th bday for a Scoutmaster's conference. Lacking any real show of leadership Troop while a Life Scout.

 

Gee, nobody wanted to be the one to get blamed for him not making Eagle. Now having trouble getting anyone to sit for the Eagle BOR.

 

But . . . . yes he did "complete" and get signed off on all requirements in literally the 11th hour. Will his Eagle Ceremony expound upon the quality of youth that makes an Eagle Scout, the leadership qualities an Eagle Scout exemplifies, the example an Eagle sets for his fellow scouts and fellow man, how this Eagle is a beacon for others to follow, how an Eagle soars? You betcha.

 

I have seen many a Scout push the envelope, but never like this. Eagle Scout? Only technically - and still not in my book.

 

Does this same thing happen throughout all walks of life every day? Sure it does. Does that make it any more right? I don't think so.

 

Now that that's off my chest, I have a renewed and fresh appreciation of the Eagle Scout who exemplifies those things that the Eagle Award represents; and an even healthier respect for the accomplishment. When you have one - and I'm sure that speaks for the vast majority - be sure to let them know the significance of their accomplishment; the significance not just of having completed, but completed in an exemplary manner. I know I will make an even more concerted effort to do so from now on.

 

Thanks for allowing me to vent on this one.

[Eagle69 46]

Something like this really sticks in your craw, but since everybody involved signed off, there is nothing you can do. I suspect this goes on a lot more often than we imagine.

[mk9750 11]

We once had a boy who crammed like you describe: 5 MBs in the last few weeks, a half assed project, a leadership assignment from the Scoutmaster, all trying to get him finished before he turned 18. A few days before, he came to me to show me a schedule he had completed for the "chores" requirement for Family Life. He had about 3 weeks filled in, and promised me he would complete the entire three months after he turned 18. As much as I wanted to, and as hard as I tried to figure out how I could, I just couldn't make myself ignore this requirement. I felt horrible. Despite everyone who I talked to about this, I still feel I kept him from being an Eagle Scout. I really know in my head I didn't. It was his procrastination that cost him the award. But I have always felt very sad when I think of him.

 

By the way, as has been pointed out numerous times in this forum, it's always the adults that make things tough. Although he tried to convince me to change my mind, and even though he won't speak to me more than to acknowledge my presence, he agreed that I did nothing wrong. His parents, however, were another story. I took more abuse from them over the next few weeks than I have ever received from any boss I ever had. they even threatened to sue.

 

I know that the only way I had the strength to do this was because I was one of those people who sat on a BOR for a Scout I still don't believe exemplifies what it means to be an Eagle Scout. I have kicked myself for a number years about that one, and vowed I wouldn't ever pass a boy who didn't deserve it. It's not easy though.

 

I guess the best we can do is to help the boys who are in the program now not fall into the same trap. Maybe we each had one or two get away from us, but if we use that frustration to teach the boys the importance of meeting deadlines with ALL of the requirements done, we won't have these kinds of situations too often.

 

Mark

[SR540Beaver 116]

These instances are purely the scouts fault, but it ends up affecting many other people. Perhaps a Scoutmaster conference around the 17th birthday to remind the boy he has a year left if he intendsd to try for eagle, a rundown of the requirements and an explanation that once he hits that magic day of turning 18, he is out of luck if he does not have his ducks in a row. You may end up in the same situation, but he can't say you didn't warn him far ahead of time.

[mk9750 11]

kwc57,

 

You're absolutely right. In this case, we spoke to this guy from @ 8 months before his BD until @ 2 1/2 months before his BD. At that point, I spoke directly to him and said that if we got together THAT night (during a Troop meeting) to develop a list of chores, we can work something out. I really wanted this guy to make it, and was willing to try to "arrange" something to make up for the lost 2 weeks. He shrugged his shoulders and said something like " I guess I'm out of luck. I'll never get everything done". A few weeks later, Mom and/or Dad must have started turning up the heat, because it got important to him then. I didn't even know he was starting to work at it again until he showed me the chores list.

 

I am comfortable we did what we had to to get him moving earlier. I'm not sure we did everything we could, but I'm not sure we should do everything we can. If we did, I'd feel like we should get part of his medal pinned on our chest.

 

But the bottom line is exactly as you say. Remind these guys what is expected of them. Help them along the way, but eventually, as my dad used to say, "you gotta sleep in the bed you made" (man, it would have been his birthday today!)

 

Mark

[Eagle74 10]

The one I speak of was the same way. Starting at 1 year out leaders were gently prodding, at 9 months out prodding a little more, by the time 6 months out hit it was down to "Do you want this or not?' and the reply was always "Yes, I'm working on it". It was not us that wanted it for him, he wanted it. He was reminded of a couple of others that almost didn't make it; they too were working up to the last minute, although not nearly at this extreme. But, he didn't want to prepare and work for it. He went into MB counselor sessions totally unprepared. It took repeated meetings about his project and again each time he came in unprepared.

 

He was unprepared for his last merit badge session on the night before his 18th bday. Counselor finally told him he needed to know the material for the last requirement in order to get signed off (after he had fumbled through the others). He left and went straight to another ("easier") counselor to get the final requirement and merit badge signed off.

 

kwc57, you're absolutely right. It's totally his own doing, but it has such a wide-reaching negative affect on so many others. Several leaders are disgusted with the way it went down, the merit badge counselors are not happy about having last-minute rushed merit badge work, the advancement chair has been going crazy throughout, scouts were affected since there had to be a last-minute special patrol meeting called for him to do one of the merit badge presentations, project work was scheduled with inadequate notice. Everyone bent over so far backward to accomodate every last-minute need that several broke their backs (figuratively). Nobody directly involved wants to be seated on the BOR.

 

I'm only happy that I was not asked to be one of the (literally)last-minute people he needed because of his own lack of preparation and planning. In my ever so eloquent manner I would have told him to pound salt - that what makes an Eagle is commitment, drive, responsibility, leadership, and self-sacrifice among other things. All of which are lacking here.

 

The part that bothers me about it is a feeling of failure as a leader. That it came down to this tells me that the message and lessons of scouting never really got through after all these years. Alas, we put it behind us, move on, and work for better results the next time around.

[frankj 10]

A question on procedures that reveals my ignorance, but does the Eagle Board of Review have any say in whether he actually gets the badge? Is this why you are having trouble staffing it, because the potential members know the last-minute nature of the work?

[Eagle74 10]

Yes, the BOR does determine whether the candidate actually has performed as necessary to qualify for the Eagle Rank, or not. The details are found in BSA's "Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures" manual.

 

For instance, execution of the Eagle project as pre-approved by the Unit Leader, Troop Committee, Benefactor and District Advancement Committee is reviewed by the BOR. "This pre-approval . . . does not meant the the BOR will approve the way the project was carried out." Herein lies one of the problems with a last-minute project. All work on the project is to be completed before the 18th b'day; if the BOR finds the project unacceptable, he is out of time to take any corrective measures as recommended by the BOR.

 

The BOR will also:

 

determine if ". . . good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life."

 

". . . make sure that a good standard of performance has been met."

 

". . . make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community."

 

". . . make sure that the work has been learned and completed."

 

The BOR must reach a unanimous decision as to the candidate's qualifications (emphasis on unanimous). Again, if the candidate's qualifications are not found to be unanimously satisfactory, for one who has now passed his 18th b'day, there is no recourse for the BOR to work with the candidate toward correction of deficiencies and reschedule another BOR. In this case, the only recourse is for the Scout, his leader, or parents to appeal the decision not to recommend through National. This gets quite messy.

 

Because of the grief caused by the manner in which this candidate ultimately completed the technical requirements of the rank - the lack of a good standard of performance - several of those who would normally sit for an Eagle BOR have requested not to be asked to do so because knowing what they know, they do not feel that that they would honestly be able to "vote" in the affirmative, therefore jeopordizing a "unanimous decision."

[ASM4005 10]

A very tough situation for everyone involved. For that very reason our Troop's BOR meets regularly with Scouts that are NOT progressing to attempt to motivate and consel. A Life Scout that is 16-17 would be on this 'priority' list for regular review and guidance. Parents of non-advancing Scouts are also updated and asked for input and support.

 

Our Troop had 12 new Eagles in 2002. Only 1 pushed the 'panic button' with a DoB deadline scare.

[LauraT7 13]

We have one who is suddenly RE- interested in scouting in order to get his Eagle in - luckily, he 'tuned in' with enough time - he just turned 17 in Feb and has been skating thru the last two years in the troop with minimal attendance, etc.

 

but he still wants something for nothing - I'm a Badge Counselor for Camping Badge - the other night at meeting he asked if I could go over his blue card with him, as he had all the requirements done. Sure! - so we went through them. he hadn't even read the pamphlet! he thought he could answer them all right off the cuff and i would give him credit for them! on the requirements where it said "WRITE a camping plan" he thought he could just tell me - I told him, no - it says "write". On "name 4 kinds of tents, he said, 'Canvas and nylon?" on the "make a duty roster" he obviously knew what they were - but as our troop has just started using them, I asked him to make one up - he said 'oh, but we always do those!' I said, yeah - but I haven't seen YOU do one, and until we reorganized the troop this last winter, I'VE never seen anyone in the troop actually use one -so I don't know if YOU have ever written one! He didn't know what the "Outdoor Code" was - had to look it up in front of me - but he had done enough camping to know the principles involved.

 

So I signed off on about half of them, asked him to WRITE the written requirements for next week, and asked him to sit with our new scout patrol and guide them thru planning a duty roster and some other planning things for their upcoming patrol outing.

 

Camping should be a real easy badge to get - if you do a reasonable amount of camping with the troop at all - you just have to follow the pamphlet - and WRITE where it says WRITE and TELL where it says TELL. I don't think I'm being too picky - am I?

 

lauraT

 

 

[scoutldr 732]

IMHO, you are doing exactly right, Laura. A MB Counsellor can neither add nor subtract from the stated requirements. If you have not directly observed the scout's performance, you can ask that he do it again for you, even if he has a partial blue card, since you are the one ultimately signing off that the badge has been completed. Otherwise, he can go back to the original counsellor.

[matuawarrior 10]

Calling his Scoutmaster at 11:00 o'clock at night before his 18th bday requesting for a Scoutmaster conference.

 

That Eagle Candidate had better be calling from a hospital bed to be waking me at that hour for a Scoutmaster Conference.

 

I'm sorry but that is going way to far. To call your scoutmaster requesting for a conference at the 11th hour will not cut it for me. For the rest of those counselors who passed him. I would seriously look on the start dates of the blue cards. That's the date when the SM signs the cards giving his approval for the candidate to start on the MB. The last time I checked Personal Management had a 3 month requirement.

 

But that's just me.

 

I just had a parent call me two days ago "begging" for me to work with her son who is a Life Scout so that he can make his Eagle before he turns 18 this coming August 5th. This kid has been a Life Scout for Two Years and now she wants me to bend over backwards so that he can make his Eagle. I asked her why is it so important to her that he makes Eagle. Her reply was that, she saw that it is looked upon favorably in his college application if he is an Eagle Scout.

 

This Life Scout has most of his requirements signed off with the exception of 3 Eagle Required MB's: Personal Management, Citizenship in the World, and Communication; Eagle Service Project, Scout Spirit, and his SM conference.

 

My reply to this mom, I'm sorry your son ran out of time,even with 5 weeks left.

 

 

Matua

[dsteele 20]

As someone pointed out, there are a whale of a lot of approvals required before a young man earns Eagle. The system is designed so it can't be circumvented (and we all know that someone, somewhere, somehow will find a way to circumvent just about anything.)

 

It sounds like the system was circumvented in this instance because no one was prepared to take the heat and say "no."

 

Mark, I applaud you for sticking to your guns on the Family Life Merit Badge. It sounds like you took a substantial amount of heat for doing it, but I think your conscience would have troubled you much more at a later date if you have allowed the young man to complete a requirement after the age of 18. As far as I'm concerned I owe you (and every other leader that requires the reqirements) for upholding the reputation of Eagle Scouts -- mine included and every other Eagle earned since Eagle 1.

 

I once had a young man who was on camp staff when I was the assistant camp director call me. "Mr. Steele," he said, "I need an extention on my Eagle."

 

I asked if he had suddenly become mentally handicapped. He said, "No. I just haven't gotten it done and I turn 18 next week." This was just after family life had become required and he hadn't even started it yet. I had no choice but to inform him that there was no extention and that he had blown his opportunity to become an Eagle Scout. I don't feel guilty about telling him that in the slightest. Luckily, his father, a prominent volunteer at the time didn't yell at me. He quit doing stuff, and maybe that's why, but there were others who took his place.

 

Here's why I don't feel guilty. I write this for the benefit of those who have, like Mark, felt it their duty to stand tough.

 

1. I became a professional scouter because I wanted to do something good with my life and because I feel a debt to Scouting. However, that does not negate my responsibility to say "no." when no is needed. In fact it heightens it. I've had to make some tough calls in 14 years of professional service. I can't think of one off hand that I would "take back." I'm sure that some of you volunteer because it feels good to do good work, but I don't think that removes the duty to make sure that what's done is right.

 

2. I think that by not making Eagle through a time-extention, the young man was taught that there are deadlines in this world and that missing them can carry some very real consequences. For the rest of his life the young man will not be an eagle scout. I hope he learned a valuable lesson.

 

3. Let's remember that we're here to teach values. Not to make Eagle Scouts. Sure, we all rejoice when we have a young man who we helped to earn the rank of Eagle. However, let's think about the young man in my story -- he didn't make Eagle. He did, however, achieve the rank of Life Scout and had eight years of Scout leaders teaching him values. He's still, (as far as I know) trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

 

At the end of the day, when we've done our jobs well, let's go home and sleep like babies. If someone's cheesed off at you, that's their problem.

 

DS

[dsteele 20]

This message is posted purely to keep on the table what ought to be there. Someone screwed something up on 5/26/03 and I don't think it was any worker/moderator of these forums.

 

DS

[KoreaScouter 13]

We're looking at a similar situation here, except in this case, the father's playing both ends against the middle with our district and the former district in the U.S. To our credit, we're holding the lad to requirements (which it doesn't appear he'll be able to complete before his 18th BD IMO). It looks as if Dad is whipping things through his former district. We're not sure of course, because he's understandably evasive about it, and don't know how much we can or should do about it.

 

Sad thing is, the Scout's a good kid/athlete/honor student, just lost interest in Scouting while a Life; it's his dad who's pushing him (he's an Eagle, as are the other boys in the family). Really leaves a bad taste in the mouth...

 

KS