Parents as MB Counselors

[Bob White 20]

Actually Korea nothing in the the BSA says a boy cannot ask for 15 merit badge cards. keep in mind there is no time limit for MB completion other than the boy's 18th Birthday. in addition, look at real life, has a boy ever asked you for 15 MB cards? I Doubt it. Maybe somewhere at sometime a scout has done it but it would be a rarity.

 

But lets say a boy does ask for them. if he has the interest what is the harm in his attempt. Be happy he has a plan. All you are out is a few minutes of writing your signature. If the scout earns them all that's great. if he earns a few that's good too. If he starts on some and learns he is not ready to complete them, that's OK the program allows that (no deadline until 18 remember). This is a no loss situation. We are supposed to be creating learning opportunities not limiting them. Why work so hard to get boys interested in scouting subjects only for them to say "OK lets go!" and you to say "NO!"? Besides except for Summer camp most scouts rarely ask for more than 1 or 2 cards at a time. Remember they have other things happening in their lives as well. Don't sweat a few blue cards. Encourage the boys to follow their interests and let them choose their own advancement path.

 

As far as the MB counselor, you are correct on some points. You cannot reverse a MB advancement once the card is signed. It is presumed that the counselor is expert enough to make the decision and a SM blessing is not required. However, if you know of a MB couselor who is not doing the job correctly you do not need to wait until the unit recharters.

 

MB counselors are registered with the council not the unit (although they can choose to only work with a specific unit) you can contact the council advancement committee anytime regarding a MB counselor's credibility of performance.

 

Keep in mind scouting was not designed to make the SM the boss in charge of everything. There are parts of a scouts activity not in the SM's control. MB's are one such area.

 

Happy Scouting,

Bob White

[k9gold-scout 10]

Over the years I have signed hunrdeds of blue cards and it seem that less than 30% were signed by their SM. At first I would send the scout packing back to his troop for a proper adult to sign the blue card. I can't recall when I asked, that a scout was told that the SM would not sign for the scout to start a badge. However I have been on the staff that had to confront an irrate SM who did not understand that when the counselor signs the card, the scout has the badge.

 

Now if a counselor is changing the requirements he should be reported to the Advancement Comm. and they should take action. Parents and scouters should be welcome to sit in on any session with the MB counselor. I have found some new volunteers this way. I have heard "I could do this" - YES you could just sign on the dotted line.

[KoreaScouter 13]

Bob;

 

You can leave out the incredibly obvious; the simply obvious will suffice! I know full well there is no BSA literature restricting the number of MBs a Scout may pursue at any given time. Many in my troop are working on multiples, including those that take a long time (camping, hiking, etc.) and those that are partial carryovers from a roundup or summer camp.

 

My example of 15 blue cards was hyperbole -- sorry if it missed the mark (although one of my Scouts was trying to get 12 MBs in a one-week summer camp last year...his dad the Troop CC at the time was "facilitating" it).

 

If a Scout came to me for what I thought was an excessive number of blue cards ("excessive" is relative, based on each Scout and my knowledge of his interests and abilities), we'd have a SM Conference to figure out what was going on -- smells like a "badge hunt" to me.

 

I use a variety of heuristics when counseling my Scouts on MB pursuits vs. other portions of the advancement program, leadership, community service, involvement with family, spiritual involvement, sports, and time to just lay in the grass and find animals in cloud formations...all work and no play, etc., etc.

 

I think the loss as you put it lies in the fact that a Scout who bites off more than he can chew, under our approving gazes, gets overwhelmed, disillusioned, and is more likely to walk away than one who receives active guidance and counseling, and pursues the advancement program at a pace that's right for him. I've seen that happen firsthand, and it could have been prevented had leaders been leaders. BTW, my time's not an issue; if it was, I wouldn't be doing this.

 

Using your logic that we should not interfere in a Scout's MB pursuits, we would not only not interfere to "hold them back", but not interfere to "push them forward". In other words, if a Scout can apply for a combination of MBs at summer camp, one combination resulting in completing Star Scout requirements, and other combination resulting in him coming up short on Eagle-required badges, and he's careening toward the latter, we should just rubber stamp the blue cards he asked for and his rank advancement is his problem? Sounds a lot like the "controlled failure" model of teaching, which reminds me of watching lab rats trying to negotiate a maze. I won't participate in that -- I actively counsel my Scouts, pointing the way to the end of the maze...getting there is their responsibility.

 

Lest you think otherwise, I am not a dictator who approaches my position as would the foreman of a Soviet collective farm, controlling all the means of production. Rather, I recognize the fact that I was selected for this based in part on my maturity and judgement. I've disapproved Scouts' MB applications very rarely, they've always understood why, and we've found alternate badges that satisfied their interests or waited a while until a better opportunity to complete the badge came along.

 

At every SM conference I hold with my Scouts, a standard question I ask is "What can I do to be a better Scoutmaster?" After they get over the first-time shock of an adult asking them for advice on how to do something, they're brutally frank, as boys will be. None have ever complained I'm micromanaging their MB program...

 

We agree on one thing here, at least in part. The SM is not in control of the MB process after the blue card is signed. That's why many SMs, myself included, pay so much attention at the front end.

 

I'm all about following the rules. This may be one of those areas where there is no cookie-cutter solution -- different leaders have different techniques...and they're all following the rules.

 

KS

[Bob White 20]

Koreas scouter, I have great respect for your scoutmastership that I have read in these posts. This is one of the few portions we differ on.

 

As too your recent example with the scouts two options...Keep in mind that rank advancement is not an aim of scouting, it is a learning opportunity for the boy. One that he is allowed to choose for himself. whether the group of badges put him in line for his next rank advancement is of no matter to the goals of the progaram. What is important is the independence and that the scout is developing and the opportunity to exercise making his own decisions, as well as following his own interests.

 

Bob White

[KoreaScouter 13]

Bob;

 

Advancement isn't one of the three aims, but it IS one of the eight methods through which we achieve the aims. You are absolutely correct when you say that advancement should not be an end in itself, and as an aside, I think we collectively put way too much emphasis on earning Eagle rank as an ultimate goal in Scouting. However, I think that offering a program and letting the advancement/MBs sort themselves out is somewhat utopian and way too laissez-faire for most if not all units, districts, councils, even BSA national. If it wasn't, why is rank advancement one of the criteria for Quality Unit determination, and why does National rate DEs in part on advancement stats? Moreover, a Scout who isn't advancing at the same approximate rate as his peers is more likely to leave the movement (re: your FCFY data on another thread, as well as BSA stats). Or, take care of the methods, Mr. Scoutmaster, and the methods will take care of the aims...

 

We are obviously not in the same place on the "advancement is important enough to supervise" continuum. Some Scouts need more than others, but all need some counseling to reach the nirvana of independent decision making you refer to. Heck, I serve alongside grownups who aren't there yet.

 

You often serve as the rudder on our "ship of opinion". It's a little unnerving to be on the other side of an issue with you -- can we just chalk this up as a declination issue; we're getting to the same place, just running different azimuths?

 

KS

[Bob White 20]

Korea,

I think a balanced discussion is good. You bring up some very common concerns, I'd like an opportunity to follow up in some of the things you mention many are excellent points and a couple I would like to offer a different vantage point on.

 

1. Advancement isn't one of the three aims, but it IS one of the eight methods through which we achieve the aims. You are absolutely correct when you say that advancement should not be an end in itself, and as an aside, I think we collectively put way too much emphasis on earning Eagle rank as an ultimate goal in Scouting

 

Absolutely right on all points. Advancement is not an aim, it is just one of 8 methods to reach the aims. because of that we need to not look at it as a goal but rather as a single tool. As one of the 8 methods it is vital that it be used correctly to accomplish it's purpose. The MB program is designed to allow scouts to practice decision making and choosing their own path. Their handbook tells them that they choose their badges. You will find no instruction or implication in any training or resouyrce material that even implies that leaders should tell a scout which MB or how many to work on.

 

You are also correct that some units put way too much emphasis on earning Eagle. Nothing in scouting suggests using Eagles as a measurenment of good troop scouting. It speaks of the qualities of the individual scout not the troop leadership.

 

2. If it wasn't, why is rank advancement one of the criteria for Quality Unit determination, and why does National rate DEs in part on advancement stats?

 

The QUA shows that a unit has met the minimum requirements that national uses to judge the health of a unit. Troop programs are to creating opportunities for scouts to learn and to put what they learn to practical use. Good leadership catches the scouts doing things correctly and signs their advancemnt. A good program introduces MB topics in a way that sparks a scout's interest in looking deeper into the topic as an individual, setting personal goals and working to accomplish them. The QUA is looking to see if your troop program is functioning in this way.

 

Why does National rate DEs in part on advancement stats? It doesn't. DE's are not measured on scout advancement. they are measured on Increase in youth served, adult volunteers, Growth in # of units and financial health.

 

3. a Scout who isn't advancing at the same approximate rate as his peers is more likely to leave the movement

 

That is true to a point. That point appears to be First Class. That is why the emphasis is on First Class First Year. From there on from there on you can expect an active scout to advance one rank every 12 to 18 months, if they choose to. Remeber we are trying to get the scouts to develop there own motivation. it will be different for different scouts. Some will be motivated by peers as you suggest. Others will want to please parents, or a scout leader, or be an Eagle like Grandpa. Others will have career goals that they know will be helped by a successful scouting backgraound. The skillful SM will learn what makes each individual tick and use that to encourage the scout to go on. Others may just like the outdoors and understand and accept the scouting ideal. A boy who leaves the program at 18 as a First Class Scout, who knows how to take care of himself and others, who is a good citizen with strong morals, is a terrific scout. The program has worked. He doesn't need to be Star, Life or Eagle to have enjoyed scouting or for us to look at him and be proud of who he is and how we helped him develop.

 

4. take care of the methods, Mr. Scoutmaster, and the methods will take care of the aims...

 

Absolutely correct. Pay attention to the 8 methods, the rules of the game that make scouting unique among all other organizations. There in fact is where the core of my frustration resides with some of our fellow posters (I do not include yo in that). They admit they don't use the methods then they want to tell others how to scout. If you aren't doing the things that we tell the boys in their handbooks they will get to do in scouting, then you aren't scouting. Just because you do things in a scout uniform does not make it scouting.

 

The handbook says they will operate as a boy lead patrol, that they will elect their own leaders, that they will choose their own Merit Badges, that they will hike and camp and canoe, that they will earn First class in about a year, that they will be rub by the PLC and that the SM will train them how to do it, not tell them what to do. It's important that we keep the promise.

 

The advancement method is about how to teach and how to reward and recognize. It is not about how to assign MBs, refuse MBs or stifle an individuals curiosity or goals.

 

5. all need some counseling to reach the nirvana of independent decision making you refer to

 

We agree completely. They all need counseling. But all couseling ends with the counselor asking "what is your decision." it is not the counselor's role to say "here is what you are going to do", or even "here is what you should do". Counseling should walk the scout through his own thought process and allow the scout to make his own choice.

 

So you see we are not that far apart. Baden-Powell said "Train them, trust them, let them lead". That leading is not always about leading others, it's also about learning to lead themselves.

 

Your friend in scouting,

Bob White

 

[KoreaScouter 13]

Bob;

 

As I mentioned in my last post, I'm going to consider us just being on a different part of the supervision continuum. Having said that, your assertion that councils/districts are not measured on advancement stats is not correct. I invite your attention to the Index of Growth product that is completed each year by each council/district (BSA Form 28-1010 for the small format, 28-5320 for the large format, 1999 printing). Items 23 and 24 are "Advancements per 100 Cub Scouts" and Advancements per 100 Boy Scouts", respectively. The formulae for calculating this % is on the reverse of the form. The "National Standard" shaded for these measurements is 87% for Cubs and 60.4% for Boy Scouts. Sure looks like they're measuring advancements to me; and item #19 is percentage of BSA Quality Units, which is composed partly of advancement figures.

 

Now, you're a lot closer to Irving (literally and figuratively) than I am; has BSA National discontinued this measurement product and the National Standards associated with it since 2000? If not, I would submit that any professional Scouter whose council or district is consistently below National Standards in these measured areas is in for a lot of scrutiny (with emphasis on the first syllable) which will certainly cascade down to the units. If you don't agree, could I interest you in some pristine real estate near Korea's 38th parallel?

 

KS

[Bob White 20]

Hi Korea,

oh I'm not saying it isn't measured. That's done as much for the council and district volunteers as it is for the professional staff. We need a yard stick to be able to determine the effectiveness of the local program. But as far as what is used to determine the productivity of a DE it is still membership, manpower and money.

 

Bob White