When helping is a waste of time.

[Eagledad 2778]

>>Maybe I need to get that going, although I'm not sure how to do that.

[sherminator505 10]

That's the neat thing about Eagle... most Scouts don't make it, but almost every Scout could. I've always been amused by the notion that some Scoutmasters use the number of Eagles they turn out as a measure of success.

[desertrat77 1144]

Clarification regarding my comment about a scout owning at least 50 percent of his fate in scouting....

 

Whatever a scout gets out of the scouting program is determined by how much effort he puts forth.

 

He's got to meet scouting in the middle, ie, do his part...mom/dad/SM can't do it all for him, whether it be Eagle or earning money to go to Philmont, or earn Lifesaving MB at camp. If this results in lost opportunity for the scout, well, it's a darn good lesson learned for adulthood.

[Gunny2862 11]

Still in agreement with desertrat77, but he only reason I don't say Scouts are completely in control of their fate should be obvious - look at the number of threads on this board about , ahem , interesting opinions of Eagle counselors, BOR members, Council or district self-appointed gatekeepers, etc.

[Stosh 3452]

If a Lone Scout can make Eagle, then anyone can. If adults are tossing in hurdles and obstacles, the boy needs to step up and call them on it.

 

I believe that every boy that joins my troop is going to be an Eagle. I do everything in my power to keep the hurdles and obstacles out of the way. Then it's 100% up to the boy to get there. Does that mean he does it without any help? Of course not. If he asks for help he get what he needs.

 

Every boy in my troop that doesn't get Eagle has to make that choice on his own. What he does to get it reflects on its value to him. If he gets it only because he will get his driver's license because that's the carrot mom and dad put out there, then that's all it's going to be. The boy is in control of his destiny, it's up to him to figure out how it works.

 

Stosh

[Horizon 97]

A Scout can't go camping without a tour permit and a driver (our District is not sure about Patrol Camping, admittedly).

 

A Scout can't earn a merit badge without my permission (as SM) and a Counselor who responds to requests for meetings.

 

A Scout can't advance without an SMC from me (or one of my ASMs so designated).

 

A Scout can't advance without a BOR from the Comittee and the appropriate paperwork filed with the Council.

 

A Scout can't advance without parental support.

 

So I consider it a bit disingenuous to claim that the Trail to Eagle is 100% the domain of the Scout.

 

A Scout can only go so far unless we (as Scouters) and parents (as a support structure) are providing the opportunity.

 

MattR - it sounds like you are doing a great job, and I feel your pain. Of my Tigers:

- One just about ready for his Eagle COH

- 3 more Life Scouts thinking about their projects - possibly for this summer

- 3 more Star Scouts who should hit Life by December at their current pace

- 1 who just made First Class after ebbs and flows of participation

- 1 who is 2nd Class due to low participation and self-motivation

- 2 who went to a different Troop

- 2 who dropped out of Scouting

 

With this, I know that we are offering a good program. I keep in contact with as many Scouts as possible (and have invited the drop outs to return someday if they like). There IS only so much we can do - but keeping positive encouragement is great. I bring up next steps at every SMC, and I like to show them what is possible IF THEY CHOOSE.

 

Good luck.

[MattR 2659]

EagleDad,

 

 

>Just get in the habit of asking scouts what they are thinking (goals wise) when

>they are struggling on something. It works for all ages, just keep the

>expectations realistic for their age and dont get hung up on their answers.

 

About a year ago I came to the conclusion that the average scout has really poor time management, goal setting, and planning skills. They mostly drift with the winds and their Eagle project is a big rock that they crash into. So I started quarterly goal setting. I don't care what the goals are that they set, but I'm trying to get them into a process, as you mention. The planning part is simply a matter of asking as many questions of how to achieve their goals as possible, who, what, where, when, how, .... The meeting before the COH we do a troop wide thorns and roses session on what the scout's goals were and what they achieved. Between that and making sure there are scouts that can teach skills available, that's most of what we do for advancement. I think the scouts like it because they take ownership.

 

I used to have a much less structured way of asking scouts their goals and it didn't stick. They would think about it, and than forget about it five minutes later. That's why I went to a more formal process that reminds them periodically to think about their goals.

 

>Its like asking a scout to set a goal of earning the Eagle, in reality the

>average boy can even conceive how to earn the Eagle because it is so

>complicated. They may say that is a goal, but they arent really seeing it. Its

>to big, especially for new scouts.

 

Absolutely! That's why the 3 month time frame.

 

>Do that consistently in bites that he can understand and see for his maturity

>and eventually you have scouts who can plan a campfire, then COH and a whole

>campout.

 

That's where I'm going with this. Eventually I want every position of responsibility to set goals and have a plan. Not mine, theirs. Same thing for those that lead events.

 

>The Eagle will be a breeze after all that. It will happen faster than

 

Well, I hope it will just be a good hard hike rather than crashing into a mountain.

 

>you think, especially if you start doing this with the new scouts. Where I

>really saw this make a big change in our troop was in the PLC planning

>meetings. You will find one day that they are planning faster than the adults.

>It will be a shock, so keep a chair near by.

 

Funny you should mention the PLC. Six months ago I started them reviewing troop and individual goals as well as plans they created. They're getting a lot more done now. I always smile when I don't know what's going on but the scouts are taking care of things. Probably in the next month or two I'm going to have each patrol start creating their own goals for each quarter.

 

>Once you get going on this, reflection is the next step.

 

And this is the part I'm struggling with now. A plan is based on goals, and goals are based on a vision. A scout without a vision will have few goals, no plan, and will do very little if anything. My response to a few scouts like this was to encourage them to work on Eagle hoping that success would motivate them. After everything I've read on this thread I'll try helping them figure out what drives them.

 

This is easy for the younger scouts: fire, water, long pointy sticks (fun), and advancement. It's much more complicated for older scouts. Fun and a high adventure trip a year are not enough when there's baseball, and marching band, and swimming, and lego robotics, and student council, and a whole lot more where each coach demands 100% participation. I see really great kids with huge leadership potential struggle with scouts not because they're bored or the program is not fun (they really enjoy the events) but because they're so good at so many things that they do a lot and consequently they don't have the time for scouts. Scouting is a high priority but it's pushed down the list because other activities require nearly 100% participation. In a way this is a different thread than the original but I think it's the same issue. Boy Scouts is not like other activities. The goal is not obvious like in sports (win!). Some may say the goal is the Scout Oath but a scout's response would be, OK, I did that for a week, I'm done. The goal of scouting may be the Oath but each scout needs their own goal. I guess what I'm saying is I'm looking for a process for scouts to figure out what their goals are, and it should be more than "get Eagle" so as to help reduce the dad effect and the time effect. No other activities allow a boy to select their own goals and that's the power of Scouting. Unfortunately, I really don't know how to help a scout figure that out.

 

>Really MattR, you sound like a really good Scoutmaster.

 

I appreciate the compliment, but, honestly, I'm clueless most of the time.

 

>How long have you been doing the job? Maybe you are working someone elses

>problems. The two scouts that quit after Eagle doesn't match your style to me.

>Could they have been the products of a previous SM? And the other two scouts

>sound like they are relating the goals that someone else has piped in their

>heads.

 

Five years. No, they aren't someone else's problem, I just can't figure out how to bring them out and I'm frustrated. I've had luck with other scouts. One scout, I just said I thought he'd be a good SPL and I turned him on a dime. Another, I made him do his Eagle project over. Now he appreciates what I did. So, I have a mixed record.

 

 

[sherminator505 10]

"A Scout can't go camping without a tour permit and a driver (our District is not sure about Patrol Camping, admittedly).

 

A Scout can't earn a merit badge without my permission (as SM) and a Counselor who responds to requests for meetings.

 

A Scout can't advance without an SMC from me (or one of my ASMs so designated).

 

A Scout can't advance without a BOR from the Comittee and the appropriate paperwork filed with the Council.

 

A Scout can't advance without parental support.

 

So I consider it a bit disingenuous to claim that the Trail to Eagle is 100% the domain of the Scout.

 

A Scout can only go so far unless we (as Scouters) and parents (as a support structure) are providing the opportunity."

 

All of this is true, but unless the Scout makes the conscious decision to go for it, it just won't happen. Now that doesn't mean that the parents have failed, or the leaders have failed, or that the Scout or Scouting failed. In fact, NOT MAKING EAGLE DOES NOT CONSTITUTE FAILURE!!!

 

Scouting does a number of great things. It teaches a boy to be motivated and self-reliant. It gets the boy to more carefully consider his role in his family, community, country, and God's green world. It teaches the boy that he really can cook, if he wants to.

 

I have seen Scouting do great things in the complete absence of Eagle's wings. I have seen a scout who achieved the lofty rank of Second Class take his first aid training and mental awareness to save his father's life. I have seen a Scout who was by some standards a bit slow on the uptake achieve the rank of Star before he timed out go on to hold down a job. And I can only imagine how Scouting has helped the millions of other boys who didn't make Eagle.

 

In the end, it isn't the rank that a Scout achieves, but the lessons that he learns.

[Lisabob 13]

Great point, sherminator.

 

Maybe another way to say this - helping is never a waste of time, even if the pay-off isn't immediately apparent.

 

 

[mc99218 10]

Bravo

Yes the world has a heck of lot more use for First Class Scouts than Eagle Scouts (no offense)

Helping can be if the helper has an agenda the acts to mold a scout into some outward notion of conduct rather than nurture the scouts innate tellents and allow the stawarts Earth Wind Fire and Water to develop the lad from within

 

Baden Powell , in his Outlooks had somthing to say about this in his Standardization of Badges (print this out, circulate sparingly)

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Standardization_of_Badges

 

 

 

"Our standard for badge earning -- as I have frequently said -- is not to attain a certain level of quality of work ( as in school ), but the AMOUNT OF EFFORT EXERCISED BY THE INDIVIDUAL CANDIDATE. This brings the most hopeless case on a footing of equal possibility with his more brilliant or better-off brother.

 

"We want to get them ALL along through cheery self development from within and not through the imposition of formal instruction from without."Outlooks 1921

 

 

The advancement numbers speak for themselves...

so few eagles , so many others...

 

I have known scouts who were very content to be T-2-1 and just mix the scouting thing in with their other interests and many of them as adults today are leading normal active lives in their pursuits, a credit to there scouting experience and the scoutmasters of their times...and their parents still speak well of them....

 

Scoutmastership is more art form and local community values than any of the volumes of trainings (useful but not to be replaced with volunteer life experiences of the right sort as BP would say....

 

Read some of the earlier works of Baden Powell especially the little red book "Aids for Scouts, NCO and Men " later rewriiten as "Aids to Scoutmastership" and review some to the earlier Scoutmaster Handbook editions for notions of mentor-ship and fair play....

 

 

A self educated Scoutmaster is a better scoutmaster

 

all scouting is local

 

campfire chatter

 

MCCET

PMTNPO

OWL

 

 

[Stosh 3452]

Horizon,

 

I'm thinking your argument has a few holes in it. One cannot get a high school diploma without going to school any more than a boy can get Eagle without going through the BSA program. Yet, it is up to the child to study and accomplish the task either way. To say a child is not in control of their fate is to say it's a waste of time to go to kindergarten because they're going to drop out along the way. If a school district has a 25% dropout rate, why not just limit the enrollment and not waste the taxpayers' money on a fruitless endeavor. Pick the best and brightest and focus the limited resources where it will do the most good.

 

Nope, one has to assume that every kindergarten student will graduate and every Tenderfoot will Eagle and it's in the hands of the person themselves to decide - 100%. To think that it is otherwise, is to assume that the credit or partial credit goes to someone other than the Eagle or graduate. I'm not thinking that anyone would assume that, or even want to assume that.

 

Like the local school district, the BSA provides an opportunity for the kids. It's up to them whether they care enough to finish the process or not. If they don't want to, there's no amount of bribery, cajoling, etc. that is going to get them there unless the person putting the pressure on wishes to take a fair amount of credit for the achievement. We have had a few of those "shared" Eagles where the boy and his parent are basically co-recipients of the award.

 

"When helping is a waste of time"? When the boy no longer cares and has mentally, emotionally, and many times physically divested himself of the program. Sure, he may occasionally show up, take a spot in the room, but doesn't show any interest in being involved, or just enough enrollment to get "credit" for showing up. Is this Eagle material? Even if the award is presented, is this Eagle material? Yes there comes a time when helping is a waste of time. It's when the boy has decided he no longer values any continuation in the program. That's a decision that only the boy can make - 100% control of his fate in Scouting.

 

Horizon, we're basically on the same page, I'm just looking from the perspective of the mental and emotional investment... that part has to come 100% from the boys or it's kind of a waste of time to pressure the boy into something he doesn't value anyway, and if Dad wants his boy to be an Eagle because he's an Eagle, that may not be a valid reason to provide all the energy to get him the award.

 

Stosh