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Beavah

Should a boy hold two PORs?

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In keepin' with the resolution, this is a spinoff from a question thread to handle a possible discussion/debate on a related issues by others.

 

The question is whether a boy should hold two positions of responsibility in a troop. FScouter argues:

 

Multiple positions of responsibility may be practiced by some troops, but multiple positions is not encouraged or approved by BSA.

 

What does the group think?

 

B

 

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IMO no, a boy shouldn't hold two POR's. I say this based on Nephew's experience serving as both Den Chief and APL/SPL.

 

Our youth carry as full of a schedule as most adults (between school, sports, Scouts, OA, maybe a job, friends, etc), so you face the same burn out with your youth that you do with your multi-hatted adults.

 

Secondly, occassionally there is a Boy Scout thing and a Cub Scout thing scheduled for the same time period - either the Den Chief misses an event with "his boys" or he misses an event with his patrol.

 

I look forward to hearing the various sides of this issue and promise to refrain from publically negating someone else's opinion simply because it differs from my own. (/SMILE)

 

YiS

Michelle

(edited for appearance)(This message has been edited by msnowman)

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For me a troop is real life scaled down to a boys size. THat being said, can an adult handle two jobs in real life? Depends! Does he have the skills, time, abilities, ambition and desire? Does the situation require a few people to take on multiple responsibilities?

 

We had an SPL who also held a office position at school, very active in band and very active in OA all at the same time. He was such a good SPL, he was elected for a second term. He certainly could handle multiple jobs at the same time.

 

I wanted scouts to be challenged in their responsibilities so they would learn. It just make take to jobs for a scout to feel challenged.

 

Barry

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Sometimes -Maybe!!

I'm sure no one would go ahead and have the SPL take on much more responsibility.

But a good many of the Den Chiefs in our area are the son of the Den Leader. So if a parent is spending time as a Den Leader and junior is going to have to tag along anyway?

I don't see the harm.

We have a Lad in the Ship who started working with a Den back when his Mom was Den Leader. He really enjoys working with the little Lads. He is now 19, an Eagle Scout, has served as an SPL and the Ship's Boatswain, he is also a member of a Venturing unit but has continued to work with the Cub Scouts (I'm not sure if or what he is registered with the pack as.)

Of course he is the Lad who when he finishes school wants to work as a DE!!

Trying to prevent a Lad from doing something that he wants to do that does no one any harm?

And might help others?

Is not what we are about.

Ea.

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I dunno if it is encouraged or approved by the BSA but I do know it can happen & if a boy can handle it, I say let him try. Heck, we as adults wear a bunch of different hats at the same time.

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The only multiple position we have is Den Chief. Many of our scouts who are PL's, APL's, etc. have younger brothers in our associated Cub Pack and their moms are den leaders. It's just a natural. They do a great job, and are much appreciated.

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I would say that it totally has to depend on the leadership positions.

 

Scouts can hold a combination of the following; Historian, Scribe, and Librarian.

 

Scouts can usually hold a troop position and be a Den Chief at the same time...and it will be up to him to decide which one comes first in the time of conflict. He just needs to remember to communicate with the Den Leader and Scoutmaster.

 

Scouts should probably not hold another position while serving as Quartermaster. At least in our troop this a time consuming position.

 

Your Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader, and Patrol Leaders should not hold another position. However, it may be possible to hold the position of O/A Troop Represenative (just like it's possible for some scouts to serve as Den Chief). Usually these positions require a great deal of responsiblity and time from the scouts involved.

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In my troop I have only one senior boy with the maturity and experience to handle multiple jobs. I have 3 PL's of experienced scouts and they have their hands full with their work. The 4th boy has TG on his sleeve, but "doubles" as a QM, Scribe, SPL, and whatever else is needed by the PL's to function with their boys. I don't think there's enough material on his uniform sleeve to handle all the jobs he does for the patrols.

 

Stosh

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Wonder what would happen if adults were only allowed to serve in one position /job ?

Ea.

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Some folks have said it depends on the boy. Some folks have said it depends on the position. I say it depends on both.

 

Some boys can be the SPL their troop, Den Chief for their feeder pack, Second Vice Chief of their Lodge, Ceremonial Team Chair for their chapter, Campmaster for the next District Camporee, president of their High School NHS, captain of the Football team, treasurer of the FCA, and a member of the chess and drama clubs (but enough about my son ;-)

 

Some boys would struggle if they were elected to the position of troop fire poker.

 

Perusing my copy of the SM handbook, I can't find anything that recommends that a scout should hold only one leadership position. I think I'll ignore that recommendation if a boy wants the challenge and I think he is capable.

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I can find nothing that either encourages or discourages the holding of multiple positions in the BSA literature. It does seem that they assume a boy will hold only one position, but I don't ever see it explicitly stated.

 

So when FScouter says that it's not encouraged, I agree. When he says it's not approved, I think I'd disagree. Oh, I guess it's technically true that they haven't pro-actively approved it, but the phrase "not approved" generally means that it is officially not allowed, and I don't see any evidence to that effect.

 

I can't imagine the BSA not approving a Scout acting as a den chief, even though he's also the scribe.

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The lack of a definitive "APPROVED" does not equate to definitive "NOT APPROVED". There simply is no approval, which is what I meant. BSA is silent on the issue. There is no quidance as to how to when a boy might hold two positions, or when it would be best hold only one. There is no rule or prohibition. There is no accomodation for two badges of office on the uniform.

 

As Barry and others related, there may be some individual boys that are capable of successfully fulfilling the duties of two positions. But just because a few boys may have the capability does not mean they SHOULD. I'd like to hear from anyone how a boy holding two positions is BETTER for the boy, or BETTER for the troop, or BETTER in any way than one boy-one position.

 

Are there so few boys in a troop that we must double up on positions? Are we best serving the boys with no position by encouraging other boys to hold two? If we are to help boys learn leadership and learn of their capabilities, how do we do that by letting one boy have two positions and another boy have none?

 

I suspect that if there were positive reasons for multiple positions, BSA would devote some space for a discussion about it in the publications. The lack of any encourgement is not meaningless.

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Well Im not going to get into shoulds, should nots and even assuming why National doesnt have text in their books. Boy, I wish our government could function under these expectations.

 

However on a practical level, I found that the hardest skill for me to teach scouts was "delegation". New SPLs tend to try and do everyones job because they know how to do them and they dont trust the ones who are new to the position. The SPL may only have one official position of responsibility (SPL), but in practical reality, he takes on several jobs at one time or another. My challenge as a Scoutmaster was to help him develop the skill of just doing only one job.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

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Eamonn writes:"Wonder what would happen if adults were only allowed to serve in one position /job ?"Adults may serve in as many positions as they can handle (the only limitation is that they may not register for two positions in a unit, unless it the COR registering as CC or MC), even though we all know its not the best way to do things.

 

The same can be said of Scouts; a boy taking two jobs means another boy isn't pulling his share of the load.

 

The other difference is that adults who wear multiple hats don't also try to sew multiple position patches on the same uniform, as was the case with the Scout whose mother started this with the question about where to place her son's second position patch.

 

So, while we may not all agree on the propriety of an adult or youth serving in two positions, surely we can agree that there is no provision in the Insignia Guide for wearing two position patches simultaneously (with the exception of the Musician patch)?

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I am IH and CA of my venturing crew. My CC used to be IH a few years back.

 

Stosh

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