Den Chief Success

[WDL Mom 10]

Hi All,

 

Eleven year old son had his first meeting as den chief with his Webelos I den. He was amazing! I think it was a glimpse of what the young man will be like in a few years. He ran 2 games and helped with a role play. Did it as well or better than I could have, and the kids in the den loved it.

 

Even though he wanted to do this, I had my doubts. Too young to be den chief. Too immature. Too close in age to the Webs. Too unorganized. Too mouthy.

 

I love being wrong.

[Eagledad 2777]

This is a wonderful post WDL Mom, thank you.

 

I think parents in general underestimate their own kids. I am struggling with this right now with my 16 year old daughter. She is teaching me through a lot of humility to ask first before I assume.

 

I only want add that at first as a SM, I didn't really appreciate the Den Chief experience very much. It was hard for me to monitor their performance and I had some issues with them when I was a Cubmaster. But we started to observe that every scout with Den Chief experience was consistently a better Patrol Leader in their first few months of service then those without the experience. The difference was so significant that we started using the Den Chief position as one form of JLT. I even brought that idea into our Council JLT program when I was the Council JLT Chairman.

 

I look forward to reading stories about your son in future years.

 

Thanks again. I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

Fantastic WDL Mom - just what a good Den Chief is supposed to be. It's amazing what a little bit of responsibility can do.

 

I served as a Den Chief for 7 years - from the moment I joined a troop to my 18th birthday as an Explorer (yep - Explorers could be Den Chiefs). It was the most rewarding youth leadership position I ever held - not even Chapter Chief or Lodge Vice Chief held a candle to it.

 

While the Den Chief is there to assist the Den Leader, another part of the job is to encourage the boys to move up to the next level - from Bear to Webelos, and from Webelos to Scouts. Something we did with my troop was to allow the Den Chiefs to invite their den to one of the regular troop meetings at least once during the year - didn't matter if it was a Webelos den or a Wolf/Bear den (back in my day, they were mixed). It certainly seemed to help boost recruiting.

 

Another thing I'll mention, in the units I've worked in/with, it seems to me that the Den Chiefs were often the ones most consistently in full uniform. The concept of setting the example really seems to take hold in Den Chiefs - The pack I worked with was large, up to 12 Dens at a time, and all had Den Chiefs - you could count on all of the Den Chiefs to always be in full uniform at every Pack meeting - and that really made an impression on the boys and parents in the pack.

 

Oh, one other thing you might find fun (since I'm reminiscing - which I seem to do a lot of here) - the Den Chiefs, who normally organized their Den to perform the flag ceremony for one of the Pack Meetings, performed the Flag Ceremony together at the Blue and Gold - even if they were from different troops. For the Blue and Gold, we usually borrowed our own units US and Troop flag for the ceremony - in my last year, we had the Pack's flag, 3 Troop flags, and 1 Explorer Post flag, along with 5 US flags - good thing we had lots of Den Chiefs that year (and each unit flag marched down the aisle next to one of the US Flags in ascending order both by unit type and number wise - first the Pack flag, them the three Troop flags (Troop 96, then Troop 168, then Troop 280) then the Post flag) And the Troop(s) flag was ALWAYS present at a Cross-over ceremony.

 

Ok - I lied - one other thing - it wasn't (and still isn't as far as I know) an official part of the Den Chief program (though it should be) - in my last year, I didn't serve an actual den - instead, I served as a sort of "Senior" Den Chief - a mentor to all of the other Den Chiefs, and assisted the Cubmaster directly with Pack Meetings and Pack Activities, with the full knowledge and approval of my Explorer Post Advisor who thought it was a great idea too. Something some of you larger Packs with lots of dens and Den Chiefs might want to consider.

 

CalicoPenn

[WDL Mom 10]

Thanks for the replies. Calico, I love the ideas!

 

I do have a question. In my son's troop, there are 2 other boys that trained to be den chiefs along with my son.

 

They are interested in working with our Pack as well. Is it better to have one den chief per den, or is it better to pair them up?

 

If you pair them up, is there enough opportunity to "lead"? Both of these boys are pretty quiet.

 

One of the parents was interested in pairing their son up with my son as den chiefs for my den. Because they "know" me, and they don't know the other den leaders in our Pack.

 

My son is anything but quiet. If one of the guys pairs up with my son, he might not get a word in edgewise...

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[ScoutNut 147]

Unless the dens are really large, where you would need that extra leader, I would say no pairing up of Den Chiefs.

 

The position is a leadership & learning one. If you have 2 boys together in a smaller den, the opportunities for true leadership are small & the opportunities for the 2 boys goofing off are large! Also, the Pack & another den are losing out.

 

If the boys are trained they do not need a Den Chief mentor. Spread the wealth where it is needed by the Pack, not where it is convenient for the Scout's parents.

[CalicoPenn 729]

Generally, it should be one Den Chief per Den. Part of the scouting method is interaction with adults - and this certainly counts.

 

As for mentoring, I consider that part of the training process - it's ongoing training. Going to Den Chief Training for 4 hours one Saturday morning may get a Den Chief his "Trained" patch, but it doesn't mean he's ready to handle anything that comes his way. Having an older Scout who is/was a Den Chief act as a mentor to the younger Den Chiefs helps complete the circle of training. I would hope that a Scoutmaster wouldn't send a raw SPL to training then tell the SPL that now that he is trained, it's all his - the Scoutmaster serves as a mentor to the SPL - and there is nothing that says former SPL's can't also serve as effective mentors too - in fact, older Scouts SHOULD be acting as mentors to the younger leaders - they have the experience, and now they should be sharing it - that's the basis behind the old Leadership Corps, and the basis behind the Junior Assistant Scoutmaster position.

 

Calico

[ScoutNut 147]

Having an older Scout or Den Chief mentor a young, brand new Den Chief IS a good idea. My son does that with the new Den Chiefs.

 

What is NOT a good idea is to have 2 or 3 brand new Den Chiefs, who all went to the same training TOGETHER, be Den Chiefs for the SAME den. They should NOT "mentor" each other. They should NOT be den Chief for a den that does not NEED them, simply because their parents know that Den Leader.

 

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

Thanks for the clarification ScoutNut - I agree with it 110%

 

Calico

[WDL Mom 10]

Thanks for the comments.

 

One last question, maybe...

 

I seem to be getting a lot of the Den Chief questions because I have a son in the Troop and also a younger boy in the Pack and I am a den leader for the Pack as well.

 

Anyway, one boy is pretty adamant that he would like to den chief for the Web. II's. There is only a one year difference. The Web. II's are a pretty rough bunch and the den chief is fairly quiet.

 

My opinion is that it isn't a good match, and I told Mom that as well. Am I correct that the Pack decides the assignment, provided that the den leader is willing to take on the den chief? Is that the Committee or the CM? Of course the SM would need to approve as well...

 

I feel a little caught in the middle...

[Eagledad 2777]

>>My opinion is that it isn't a good match, and I told Mom that as well. Am I correct that the Pack decides the assignment, provided that the den leader is willing to take on the den chief? Is that the Committee or the CM? Of course the SM would need to approve as well...

[CalicoPenn 729]

You had a wise Den Chief ASM there, Barry - good chemistry between the Den Leader and the Den Chief is the key to a successful Den Chief/Den relationship - after all, the Den Chief becomes part of the Leadership Team of the Den (and Pack) and needs to be counted on, and counted!

 

In theory, the Cubmaster makes a request to the Scoutmaster for Den Chiefs. Den Chiefs are then appointed by the SPL and Scoutmaster - the SPL MUST be involved in the appointment because the Den Chief is a youth leadership position, and it is the SPL that appoints all youth leadership positions in the Troop (with the sole exception being Junior Assistant Scoutmaster)(further clarification - those junior leadership positions that are appointed and not elected). The role of Scoutmaster, other than being the contact with the Cubmaster, should be to approve the appointment (and rightfully so - the Den Chief will be representing the Troop to the Pack and the Scoutmaster has a responsibility to the Troop and Troop Committee to make sure the Troop is well represented). Just as acceptable, though, is for the SPL and the Scoutmaster to come to a collaborative consensus on the appointment and for them to appoint jointly, in one voice.

 

Once the appointed Den Chief is presented to the Pack, the Cubmaster and the Pack Committee accepts (or denies - rare but could potentially happen) the Den Chief and approves a recommendation to a Den Leader - or put another way, the Cubmaster and Pack Committee appoints the Den Chief to a specific Den, although the Den Leader can refuse the appointed Den Chief, or can make a request for a specific person.

 

Sounds complicated? Admittedly, it is so...

 

In practice, what generally occurs is a boy moves on to Scouts, has younger siblings or a parent still active in the pack, and asks if he can be a Den Chief in the pack - oftentimes directly asking a specific Den Leader if he can be their Den Chief - Den Leader say's ok - tells the Cubmaster, who asks the Scoutmaster to allow the Scout to be the Den Chief for this Den Leader - and most Scoutmasters won't say no - at least not if they understand the importance of Den Chiefs not only to a Pack but to the Troops recruiting efforts. The Scoutmaster might run it past the SPL who likely doesn't care either way - and viola, new Den Chief.

 

How does this help you WDL Mom? - It probably doesn't - instead, I'd build on what Eagledad's Den Chief ASM said - its the chemistry between the Den Leader and the Den Chief, not between the Den Chief and the Webelos, that most matters. I would ask the Webelos II Den Leader if they want to work with this lad.

 

On to something not quite related to the question, but certainly related to the role of Den Chief - look into the requirements for the Den Chief Service Award - yes, the BSA has an award that Boy Scouts can earn for serving as a Den Chief. The award itself is a Red, White and Blue Den Chief Cord which can be worn as long as the Scout is a Scout - even if he no longer serves as a Den Chief - if he is serving as a Den Chief, he can wear both cords at once. The award requires a minimum 1 year committment as a Den Chief, and has a number of other requirements, and is a great recognition for service if earned by the Scout. This is something that you can encourage the Den Chiefs to earn - and there really is no reason every Den Chief couldn't earn it.

 

Calico

 

[WDL Mom 10]

Calico,

 

Thanks for the info on the cords. I see the "appointment" process more along the lines of your second scenario...

 

I did run it by our Cubmaster. He would prefer to see the den chiefs with either the Wolves or Tigers. His thought was that there are only about 4 months until the Web.II's bridge and our Wolf den is big.

 

Which led me to another question... Is there a "time" requirement for den chief for it to "count" as POR in the troop? Also, how is this POR evaluated by the Scoutmaster?

 

I am really excited by this program, and I see it providing some real leadership opportunities for the Boy Scouts that are involved. Not to mention the younger guys eating up the attention. Some of the details seem fuzzy, or is it just me?

 

Thanks for all your help.

[CalicoPenn 729]

Time requirement for POR? Yep - the same amount of time as any other time requirement - if the requirement states serve 6 months, the time requirement is 6 months. Here's the rub, though - the requirements don't state that it must be the same position for all 6 months - they state serve in one or more POR's for 6 months - theoretically, a Scout could serve in 6 different POR's, one per month, for 6 months and meet the requirement but it's really written that way because sometimes someone might be elected to be SPL, having already served 4 months as a Den Chief, or Scribe, or whatever, and in most cases, the SPL will give up the other POR during his term and rather than be penalized for it, still gets the credit of those four months (btw - for Star it's 4 months, Life and Eagle 6 months - in my opinion it should be 4 months for 1st class, 6 months each for Star, Life and Eagle - but thats for another discussion).

 

For the Den Chief Service award, the Scout MUST serve 1 year as Den Chief.

 

Calico

[Troop185 44]

I found that a two year difference in age is important. I had good success with 11 year old, first year scouts being Den Chiefs to 9 year old, 1st yr. Webelos. The Den Chiefs have always stayed with the Webelos until they graduated into Boy Scouts in 1 1/2 year.