What should I do?

[oldsm 10]

This will be a bit long, so please bear with me. I have been presented with a situation that has many potential resolutions. I'd like advice on what you see as the best course of action. Here's the situation.

 

I have 14-year-old Star scout who has been something of a low-key thorn in the side, and who has now appeared on the bullying horizon. This lad is generally a good kid, quite likeable, who has been troop QM (not very effectively) for the last year. His dad is one of the more active assistant SM's and his mother is on the troop committee. He has a younger brother who is quite the antithesis. The parents have been very supportive of scouting and are aware that their older son is not perfect.

 

Two years ago at summer camp there were several instances of improper behavior by our now-Star scout. They weren't major threats or anything requiring a nuclear response. They were generally more along the line of refusing to do his part or refusing to accept personal responsibility for his own actions. This understandably caused friction with his troop mates. Twice during that week I sat with the scout (and my assistant SM) to explore his attitude and get him back on the straight and narrow. The upshot was that he was to correct his ways, act appropriately for his age, and conduct himself according to the scout Oath and Law. We agreed that if he could control himself, that the matter would go no further and would be between the three of us. But that if there were additional incidents, they all would be made known to his parents. That worked for several months.

 

At a later weekend camping trip, the same scout started getting mouthy with other scouts, reverting back to his previous behaviors. When I learned about it, I again talked with him (with another adult present) and required him to be my personal shadow for the rest of the weekend. I told his father (when he arrived later the same day) what had transpired. He was totally supportive, and acknowledged that they had been dealing with some behavior issues at home. I think that relationships with other boys at middle school were a contributing factor to sending him to a private school instead of our local high school.

 

This past summer, the lad was a model camper for our entire week. Good enogh that I recomended him for the CIT program. He served 2 weeks and really enjoyed it. I got no untoward comments about his perfomance from the camp director or program staff whom I know.

 

Here's the present problem. Things have beein going along pretty well until last Tuesday when we had troop/patrol elections. Our Star scout was one of two boys running for PL in the senior patrol. He lost to another boy (by 1 vote, I'm told). These two boys have not been on particularly good terms over the years - they mostly try to avoid each other.

 

I got a call from the father of the winner (new PL), who is also an assistant SM. It seems that the new PL told his dad that the Star scout threatened the PL because the Star scout lost the election. Nothing big, just sort of like "I can take you outside in the parking lot" and making innuendos about undermining the new PL so that he wouldn't be successful.

 

I questioned my own two sons, who are members of the patrol, independently about the election process/results/reactions. No leading questions. Neither reported anything out of line from anyone. This made me wonder if the incident was being blown out of proportion by the new PL (who can be a bit whiny sometimes).

 

Last night I was talking with the new SPL about potential troop appointments (he was a member of the same patrol and was present during the patrol election). He mentioned that he had wanted to appoint the Star scout (our bully), to a troop position - even thinking ASPL. However, when he observed the scout's behavior and treatment of the new PL, he SPL figured that a person with an attitude olike that would not be very effective and would not be able to work well leading other scouts. I asked him what he meant, and he confirmed everything that the new PL's dad had reported to me. I am supporting the SPL's decision to appoint someone else.

 

I have documented all of these incidents in my personal notes.

 

All of this is background information for context. The question (and title of the post) is "What Should I Do?". I have searched these forums and come up with a number of threads that deal with bullying. The most relevant one seems to be this one: threadID=135948#id_135948. But there are dynamics in my situation that seem to muddy the course of action.

 

* G2SS

* Parents in leadership positions

* Younger brother in troop

* Don't want to lose either of the boys or either of the parents

* Cannot permit bullying behavior to continue, both for safety issues and effective operation of the unit

 

I could:

 

* Counsel the youth again with another assistant SM present. One point to emphasize could be that his actions are directly affecting his opportunities to demonstrate leadership. But this might seem like another inconsequential event.

* Have one of his parents present as silent observer during the counseling (silent would be hard for either parent).

* Have a meeting with both the bully and the new PL with all of their parents present as observers.

* Refer the matter to the troop committee for their action. The committee is unaware of the previous incidents, although I believe I related the first summer camp incidents to the CC in passing (not for any review or action). Remember that mom sits on the committee.

 

Our next troop meeting is tomorrow (Tuesday) and I feel as though I need to "strike while the iron is hot". I would appreciate your opinions on the best way to proceed, given the history I've described. Thanks for taking the time to read this historical accounting and post your comments.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

If I understand the situation, you have a lot of hearsay evidence that points to the dark side and you have experience that says the boy has changed. I would wait to observe some behavior, either good or not and immediately reinforce it. With either a good job pat on the back or a quick though private rebuke. You have been made aware of a potential problem, but I would hold off on any action until you witness a problem or at the very least undesirable behavior is verified by multiple sources.

[evmori 11]

Interesting. Thanks for all the details.

 

I would sit back & observe for a month or so to see if the problem Scout is reverting back to his old form. It is possible the PL & SPL are in cahoots. From what you posted, it sounds like this Scout has come a long way & should be given the benefit of the doubt one last time.

 

Let us know what happens.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[oldsm 10]

OGE, This is unlikely to be corroborated by additional sources - there are only a few boys in this patrol and some were not even present. I suspect that my boys didn't hear what was said because one was chatting with another patrol mate (go figure!) and the other had been assisting another patrol with something or other. To my way of thinking, waiting for another incident is not a good option. After all, bullies are often very good at hiding their actions, especially when they think that adults are watching.

 

Ed, I believe that there is no way that the SPL and PL are in cahoots with each other. While they are not close friends (as in they don't hang out with each other), they both live very much according the the Oath and Law. I know these families personally and have for quite a number of years - especially the SPL, who is loathe to say anything bad about anyone! He's almost too honest!

 

[ScoutNut 147]

My first reaction was, why did the PL wait & tell his parents about this at a later time? Why did he not tell anyone about this at the time it happened? If the SPL was standing right there why didn't he talk to the SPL about this?

 

Also, If the SPL witnessed this bad behavior why did he choose to ignore it? Was he not SPL at the time? If he (SPL) felt the behavior did not warrant mentioning to anyone at the time, what changed his mind a week later? Could it be, he felt that the incident was minor until he caught flack from this PL and/or the PL's parents?

 

As for the boy, you state that he had a slight behavior problem 2 years ago, but since then his behavior has been fine. Why hold his behavior of 2 YEARS AGO, over his head now? Seems a bit extreme to me.

 

To me, who was not there & can only go by your description, this does NOT sound like bullying. What this sounds like to me, is a possibly impulsive young man, venting spoiled grapes on losing the election to someone he dislikes. You stated yourself that this boy's comments seemed like "nothing big". Yes, the comments were inappropriate. Yes, they should be addressed. A SM conference would be the way to go in my mind. However, you need to keep your personal prejudices about this young man ("our bully") OUT of the SMC.

[WDL Mom 10]

Hi,

 

A couple of suggestions:

 

1. This is a process and as you already know it is going to take some time. However the boy should be doing the work not us!

 

2. I would suggest NOT striking while the iron is hot... sometimes deferring consequences actually works better.

 

Mention to your scout in an off hand way non-confrontational way, Tom I heard that we had a repeat of some poor behaviors after the election... I know that we have talked about behavior in the past. I will have to do something, but, I am not sure what. Don't worry about it now, I will get back to you when I decide. Of course the scout is going to worry and actually think about what happened and what the consequence might be.

 

I have used this on kids and after a couple of days they are actually begging to get their consequence! Especially if you see them everyday...Plus, it gives you some time to talk to the parents, your SPL, ASM's and come up with some choices.

 

3. I would sit down with the scout and explain the unacceptable behavior... again. Then I would try to put the problem back in his lap. How are you going to solve this problem? No ideas of what you could do? Would you like to hear what other kids have tried in the past? Then give him a list of possible solutions, probably no more than 3 or 4. Be sure that you are ok with any of the proposed solutions.

 

4. Scout chooses a solution. Your response is "GREAT" hope that works out well for you! It is optional, but, you could also have him decide on the consequence if the proposed solution doesn't work.

 

This can work, especially if you have a relationship with the kid. Kids want control, and if they don't feel that they have any they will attempt to take it on their terms. Make him own the problem, give him choices and show him that you have confidence that he can solve his own problem.

 

If at any time his behavior becomes abusive to others (behavior escalates) then I would intervene directly and remove him from the other scouts.

 

A lot of this is from an Love and Logic by Jim Fay, he has some books out on teaching and parenting.

 

Good Luck.

[oldsm 10]

ScoutNut, I should clarify a few points. It's easy to overlook some of the dynamics, especially when creating a long post and trying to relate only the most salient aspects.

 

1. The PL told his dad when they got home. I'm sure that no one wanted to look like a rat at the meeting with other people around. This boy is also a little on the shy side - not very assertive. His Dad called me the next evening. I think that was reasonable. I queried my own sons over the next 2 days (when I could speak with them indivudally and privately), then called the PL's dad back and told him my findings. We agreed then to simply wait and see if anything further developed or was mentioned by anyone.

 

2. As to why the SPL didn't say anything right then, he had been elected SPL only a few minutes earlier. He told me yesterday that he had not considered it to be a big deal, although he described it to me as "something of a small threat". The SPL mentioned it to me - reluctantly - only as part of a discussion that he and I were having about potential troop appointments. He told me that he had changed his mind about appointing the election loser to a troop POR, elaborating only when I pressed him to tell me more. He didn't see it as a big thing, although the PL did - enough, at least, to mention it to his dad. I don't see where you can infer from my post that the SPL "caught flack" from anyone. I think you might be reading to much into the situation. The SPL has had no communication about this siuation with anyone other than me.

 

3. No, I did not state that everything has been fine since a "slight behavior problem 2 years ago". Please reread my post. There have also been a number of other instances of lesser import since then that I did not want to burden forum members with (nor have I documented all of them - there's not that much time). I see this incident as being part of a continuum where an underlying problem occasionally periodically comes out of hibernation.

 

4. I applied the "bully" label only when the threat came into play. I think based on what I've read in these forums and others that the label applies. Do I really think that this lad would act on his threat? No. But I don't have a crystal ball. How many people have predicted that the "normal" people who have carried out recent school shootings would do so? If I don't act, and something does happen subsequently, am I not at fault for not having reacted? I have tried to be as objective as possible and have kept personal prejudices out of this. If anything, I have bent over backward to help this young lad and have given him the benefit of almost every doubt that has come along.

 

I am not on a "witch hunt" (my words) or trying to make life difficult for this young man. If anything, I've given him many opportunities to do extra, "privileged" things that some of the scouts think I perhaps should not have done (like asking him to be involved in a recent emergency services drill). But this is a situation that needs to be dealt with before it affects other boys negatively (the other incidents already have, as I have alluded to). I need to do something.

 

Perhaps WDL Mom's suggestion will work; I think it as some merit. I will think on it and will be interested to see what other constructive suggestions come along.

[Beavah 205]

A small amount of sour grapes after a close election, while not perfectly honorable, also doesn't rise to da level of "bullying" in my book. It's a kid feelin' a bit hurt and sayin' "Yeah, but I'm better than you in some other way." Not a great choice of words, could be intimidatin' to the quieter PL, definitely worth payin' attention to, but not a hangin' offense. Certainly, keep the committee out of it.

 

In your whole long description of your responses to this boy's behavior, the one thing that leaps out is that it's always adults respondin'. I'd encourage you to break that habit, and involve other kids in the discussion if they're mature enough. They have way more impact than an adult lecture will ever have.

 

Set up a meeting with the SPL, the Star scout, and (perhaps) the PL, and (perhaps) other boys in the patrol. If your troop does "Thorns and Roses" regularly, think in those terms. Coach da SPL in advance. "I was really thinkin' about you for ASPL (because you're good at XYZ roses...), but man, the way you talked to the PL really bummed me out (thorns...)." Good experience for your SPL, too. Talkin' about people behind their back is easy, havin' the courage and kindness to confront them takes more work.

 

Have a conclusion in mind before you start. Maybe ASPL for a month to see how it works. Maybe nothing for a couple of months, but the chance to become a second ASPL after that. Acknowledge the thorn and its consequence, but also acknowledge the rosebud and its hope for the future.

 

It's a good teachable moment, use it if you can. But if you can't, I wouldn't convene the grand jury quite yet, eh?

 

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

Lots of good thoughts and advice presented here. It doesn't sound like anything to escalate to the committee at this point - and it doesn't sound like bullying behavior to me as much as frustration boiling over in an inappropriate manner. You say the earlier issues had more to do with responsibility issues - mouthing off certainly could fit in with that as well (we don't have a sense as to what he was mouthing off about).

 

I sense that there are issues with self-esteem in this lad - and losing an election, which are at the best of times, part popularity contest, could certainly cause someone with a lowered sense of self-esteem to lash out verbally as this lad has done. When you recognized him for his good performance at camp and recommended him for the CIT program, you saw that the boy seemed to do very well, at least personally ("he really enjoyed it") - you say you heard nothing bad about him from the camp but don't say if you heard anything great about him - have you asked? That sounds like you really boosted his self-esteem with your recommendation and he wanted to prove to you (key word - prove to YOU) that he could do this.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this lad may have been, unbenownst to you, a victim of some type of bullying behavior himself - that would certainly affect his self-esteem. Perhaps nowhere you saw it (not in your troop), or in any manner you might recognize as blatant bullying, but you say his parents have been dealing with behavioral issues at home and that issues he may have had with other kids at middle school may be a reason his parents are sending him to private school? Bully's don't tend to act up at home (they are perfect little angels for Mom and Dad). Victims, on the other hand, do often act up at home as a way of trying to get attention. We know that boys who are bullied tend to suffer from lowered self-esteem and will lash out at other boys they think may be weaker than themselves (your new PL - the "shy boy"). It sometimes leads to that person becoming a bully themselves, but so far, there doesn't seem to be a pattern of bullying emerging. I know, nowhere do you say that this lads parents said he was bullied in school - but my sense is that you haven't gotten too many details from the parents about his behavior at home and issues in school anyway - only that they have mentioned he is having some issues.

 

My take? You're dealing with a lad with low self-esteem, who had another notch at his sense of worth hacked out with the election. I would speak with the boy and let him know you heard what happened, you understand how frustrating it was, that you see this as an expression of that frustration, but that it was an inappropriate way to express that frustration. Make sure he knows how proud of him you are for his work as a CIT this past summer. Ask him if he thinks an apology to the PL is in order (the lad is 14 now - telling him to apologize is meaningless at this point - he's old enough to figure it out for himself - you may just need to guide him into making the right choice). Talk to the SPL again - ask him if the Lad would still make a good ASPL - and if he would reconsider if the Lad apologized - no other lads in the troop other than those who already know, need to know what is going on. Beavah's idea of the SPL telling the lad he wants to (wants to - not wanted to) appoint him as an ASPL but telling him his verbal reaction to the election left him "bummed out" is really good. See what happens - I'm willing to bet that the lad will apologize to the SPL too and promise not to let it happen again. Then give him responsibilities and TRAINING and see if he grows into the role. I'll bet he will - as long as you are willing to mentor him. Which leads me back to that key word - YOU.

 

The other sense I get from your post is that this lad responds well to YOU, oldsm. Part of Scouting is the chance to interact with other adults outside the family. A lot of lads look to one particular outside adult as a potential mentor (they may not realize it at the time, but they will later on). You've started out well with this lad - are you willing to take it to the next level? Yes, I know you have a troop full of boys, but how does that saying go - "In 100 years what will matter the most is that I was able to make a difference in the life of one boy" (or something like that). From the outside looking in, I think this lad is that "one boy" who will be most affected by you. And you seem up to the challenge to me.

 

CalicoPenn

 

 

[Eagledad 2779]

>>My take? You're dealing with a lad with low self-esteem, who had another notch at his sense of worth hacked out with the election. I would speak with the boy and let him know you heard what happened, you understand how frustrating it was, that you see this as an expression of that frustration, but that it was an inappropriate way to express that frustration.

[jr56 92]

Sounds like a potentially good boy, who has some growing up to do. From the history you gave, he has had some minor problems, seems to respond to adult counceling, and maybe has a few backsliding problems on occasion. I think the lastest is the result of his frustration over not winning the election. I would council the young man again about his inappropriate behavior. Life is a continuous learning process, and this young man is still learning. Keep helping him along.

[red feather 10]

Having not been there or involved with the various discussions I cannot comment.

 

Something that I have done in the past ( 14 yrs) is put upon the scouts that have earned their star rank is that they are the scouts that I look to provide leadership and that leadership is to be within the Scout Law. These scouts are going to looked to by me (ASm and now SM) to be the scouts to get me out of trouble and other scouts out of trouble, interesting how the light comes on when they are told this. It is a challenge that they had not had prior to Star rank. Had a troubled scout that when told that since he had earned his Star that I was counting on to get me to help if I was hurt on an overnight his attitude turned around and the problems we were having went away.

 

He became knowlegable of his responsibility as a scout and responded.

 

Just a thought

yis

[oldsm 10]

I should update what has transpired.

 

I met with the SPL (who was the one who witnessed the exchange). I offered to address the situation or, if he wanted, he could attempt to address it (I liked that idea due to the boy-run aspects and the idea of peer communication). I furthered offered a possible way to handle this along the lines of what Beavah suggested (a couple of "probationary position" options or a "delayed appointment" option). The SPL decided he wanted to try...

 

He gave it his best shot. Unfortunately, the scout quicly rejected the whole idea. The SPL reported back to me (while I was meeting with ASM's on some other matters) that the offer had been declined, and that the scout had told the SPL that if the SPL told me that he was angry about the situation and I subsequently said anything to him about attitude, he would be really upset.

 

A few minutes later I went to talk with the scout. I couldn't find him. Apparently, he had called his mother to come pick him up, leaving without letting any adults know. I called his house to find out if he was there and to ask a parent to join me at the meeting for a discussion. His dad (an ASM) answered the phone, proceeded to express his displeasure at his son being put on probation from the troop, the lack of support structure for his son, and so on. After I finally got a chance to respond, it became obvious that there was miscommunication between the boys. (I asked for a face-to-face meeting, but was turned down.) Now it has escalated to the family level.

 

The dad was questioning the SPL's authority to put a scout on probation. I explained that his membership was not probationary, just the offer of a troop appointment. The family is apparently considering whether or not they will continue to be involved with the troop. I related over the phone as best I could what had transpired when as I understood it, although I'm sure that some of it got lost in the emotion of the moment. I encouraged him to keep the lines of communication open.

 

Today I got an email from the dad that summarized the events as he understood them (reasonably accurately, I must say). But he was wanting more detail: exactly how the vote occurred, who said what to whom and when, etc.

 

"Please provide the Troop/BSA guidelines on dealing with allegations made by one scout upon another scout and describe how your handling of this matter was consistent with such. Additionally, please explain the review process you undertook and your rationale for recommending to [the SPL] that [his son] be offered a probationary troop position."

 

This has the potential to turn ugly. Ive shared this entire incident with 2 other ASMs and the CC, none of whom have expressed any disagreement with how things have transpired. In this case, perhaps Beavahs suggestion wasnt the best choice. Now I have to figure out how to respond to the dad.

 

Id really like to salvage the situation. this is a good kid and a good family. I hate dealing with situations like this through emails. Too much gets lost and no one gets the benefit of body language and voice tone.

 

Further suggestions, anyone?

[Eagledad 2779]

>>"Please provide the Troop/BSA guidelines on dealing with allegations made by one scout upon another scout and describe how your handling of this matter was consistent with such. Additionally, please explain the review process you undertook and your rationale for recommending to [the SPL] that [his son] be offered a probationary troop position."

[evmori 11]

WOW! Barry, that was one inspired response!

 

oldsm,

 

I would concur with what Barry posted! He hit a home run with that one!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10