ScoutMasters - do they get enough support?

[Venividi 35]

Scoutingagain said:

Some folks just seem to have a pretty low opinion of adult scouters.

 

After reading many of the responses in a couple of recent threads, I had this same thought. Along with responses recommending meeting with the scoutmaster about program/philosophy/etc. (along with COR, CC, Unit Commisioner)to deal with the issue, there were more than a few responses that lambasted the SM. Responses that the SM is definitely wrong, that the SM is untrainable, that he should be "fired". I don't see how it is beneficial to draw such a conclusion based on a 2 or 3 paragraph description.

 

I have to ask myself why there is such a low opinion of SM's. I expect that, like anything else, there is a bell curve, with a few bad ones, a few excellent ones, and the majority falling in the middle, devoting their available time to providing a program for scouts. Not perfect, and like everything else, prone to mistakes, especially through a learning curve. By sitting down together problems can usually be worked out. Conflict resolution is one of the skills that we try to teach the scouts. It is included in BSA's Jr Leader Training tape. If we think this skill is important enough to teach to scouts, why are so many adults reluctant to use the technique themselves when they see a problem?

 

I recall an issue that bubbled up shortly after my son crossed over to his troop in '98. There was a conflict in process, with one group of parents working to "fire" the SM because of something that they did not like about the way he ran the program. I never did find out what the initial complaint was, but rather than working through the conflict when it emberged, it got so bad that was a special meeting/hearing with the unit commiss, Dist commiss, head of the COR, and all parents. The DC evaluated and found that the SM was running a program in line with BSA. It was a pretty divisive situation, and did end up in some families leaving becasue they din't agree with the district's position. I recall a number of discussions while I was SM, with heated parents that could not believe that their son had not met expectations for scout spirit for a rank advancement. I am watching a similar scenario play out between the current SM and a set of parents with the CC.

 

My son is now in college, and I have stepped back to the fringes. I would like to consider getting involved with the troop again, but am wrestling with whether the joy helping scouts stretch and grow in character and citizenship is worth the pain of dealing with parents and committee members that wish to see a program where it is the SM's fault if their son doesn't make Star in 4 months, Life in 6 months, or Eagle before leaving middle school.

[jr56 92]

You are right, these things need to taken on a case by case basis. There are some instances where the Scoutmaster is bringing on his or her own problems because they aren't following the program. More often though, I find the problem is often parents who have no concept of what the scouting program is supposed to be, and have unrealistic expectations that are not being met.

[Eamonn 61]

While I'm sure things vary from District to District and from Council to Council.

I believe that the program isn't that hard and that help of almost any kind is there for the asking.

Most and I say most, not all problems arise out of people not following the program.

While some people might disagree I think that the BSA does a wonderful job with the literature it puts out.

While there is some debate about the effectiveness of the Commissioner Staff, most Districts are made up of capable Scoutmasters who are more than willing and able to offer a helping hand or give advise.

Sad to say there are a few adult leaders who do ask the questions but when they don't like or don't want to like the answer decide to do things their own way. While this at times does work, mostly they end up digging a bigger hole.

One of the last things that Wood Badge participants hear before departing from the course is that Training never ends. I can't help feeling that this puts an onus on all of us to ensure that we are delivering the program of the BSA as it is written. Sure there are times when all of us don't understand or misunderstand things, we are after all human. However if we keep an open mind and really try to see what the program is about and what the literature is really saying, if need be asking for help when needed, I believe that there is a lot of support out there.

Of course the people that serve at the District and Council level do always need to strive to do a better job of supporting the people who do the really important work with the youth members.

Eamonn.

[Venividi 35]

Thanks, jr56

There are some instances where the Scoutmaster is bringing on his or her own problems because they aren't following the program.

 

Perhaps lost im my ramblings (or perhaps I never got to it) was a message I wanted to convey that when there are instances where a parent or committee member doesn't believe that the SM is providing a program that is consistent with BSA's directive, what is wrong with having a discussion between reasonable adults. And if the program being delivered is outside what BSA guidelines, working together to get there.

 

 

[Venividi 35]

Eamonn,

 

I disagree that the problem is usually that the BSA program is not being followed. My experience with parents that did not think that the program was being followed was that they did not understand the program because they had not been through training, nor read advancement guidelines, troop committee guidebook, etc. So it really didn't matter how good the material was. They didn't understand that all methods are used to achieve the aims. I do agree that there are SM's that are not well versed in the program either - but I believe that most of them are trainable, and new SM's can learn it as they gain experience.

 

My experience with asking for help is also different than yours. I found that it varies by the mix of parents in the group at the time. As an example, When I first assumed the SM role, the operating model of the troop committee was that the SM was responsible for making reservations, generating & collecting permission slips, taking care of equipment, being troop chaplain, etc. I do recognize that recruiting adults is not one of my better strengths, but I did individually ask parents that I thought could do a good job at these, and got "no's". Two years later, out of the group of parents of new crossovers, there were a lot of parents that were eager to help out.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[acco40 95]

The SM is the "face" of many troops. Most don't really understand their role. Some SMs get in the habit, because they are seen as the face of the troop, of doing too much. For example, I just got done gathering up permission slips, making calls, collecting fees, and registering our troop for the fall camporee. Should the SM be doing these tasks? No. But the deadline for the early-bird fee was today so it was either do it myself or add another $150 to the cost. I wonder, I may have saved the troop $150 but in the process reinforced the idea that "the SM will take of it" that permeates many troops.

 

Yes, many parents incorrectly assume that whatever the majority of parents in the troop decide on how the trooop should be run is the way it should be run (does that make sense?). While I, the SM, like to keep the boundaries that the BSA program places on us.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Eamonn 61]

I don't see how explaining the program works or showing parents the literature is that hard.

Of course if they are really that unhappy they can take their case to the Troop Committee. If Mr. Scoutmaster is following the program they just don't have a case.

I think you need to take a long hard look at the role of the Scoutmaster.

Selecting Adults is not there, leave that to the people who are charged with doing it, while you go about Training the PLC and delivering the program to the Scouts.

Eamonn.

[pmickle1027 10]

As a Sm that had the Troop handed to him on the second meeting night, I can understand this feeling. I had 1 asm who could only make some meetings and no comittee to speak of. It became a pyramid scheme, I grabbed 1 parent and worked from there.

[Eamonn 61]

If people are not doing the job that they are supposed to be doing. How is anyone ever to know what support they need?

Eamonn.

[Venividi 35]

I agree, it is not hard to explain how the program works. It does beg the question as to whether everyone buys in to how the program is supposed work.

 

I started this thread because I was surprised at the number of responses in other recent threads that took the view that a poster's 2 - 3 paragraph description was the accurate point of view, and proceeded to lambaste the SM for delivering a bad program. Those posts may indeed be factual from every other point of view also, but one cannot tell that until one sits down with the SM (and other interested parties) and discusses it.

 

I think you said much the same when you wrote:

Of course if they are really that unhappy they can take their case to the Troop Committee. If Mr. Scoutmaster is following the program they just don't have a case.

 

I would hope that all would want to first try to work with a SM, especially a very new one, to make corrections to a program rather than dumping him if it isn't 100% on target.

 

I think that it is also important to recognize that members of troop committees also have learning curves. And in my experience, are much less likely to take training than are SM's, which brings this full circle back to explaining the program; And my point that people shouldn't jump to the conclusion that the SM is providing a bad program without having a discussion with him.

 

Cheers

[Bob White 20]

I don't know any post where anyone said to dump anyone who was not 100% on target. I am not even sure how you would go about putting a % scale on a volunteers performance.

 

But as Eamonn points out the program is not difficult to learn or follow, but the volunteer has to be willing to learn it, and they have to be willing to follow it or ther is no use in keeping them around.

 

I do not have a low opinion of Scouters. I just wish there were more of them. I have a low opinion of volunteers who only want to wear a uniform and boss children around. They are not "scouters", because they have chosen to either not learn, or not follow, the scouting program, and their is no acceptable excuse for that kind of choice.

 

[Eamonn 61]

" It does beg the question as to whether everyone buys in to how the program is supposed work."

While I can't talk for other people. I know that if I was presented with belonging to a program or an organization that I was unable to buy into I wouldn't want to join!!

Over the years there have been people who have been unhappy with me. They have not agreed with things that I have done. However once I have shown them that this is how it is supposed to be done and I give them or show them where they can find where I'm right - I couldn't care less where they go or who they go to. It is one big benefit of having right on my side.

Of course the boot also fits the other foot, there have been times when I have thought someone was wrong and they have shown me that I was wrong. Some of these times, I still might not agree with what has been done or what is going down, but they are in the right.

Nearly all the people I know that serve on the District, Council level really do want to support all the adults who serve our youth. Even at times going so far to defend the person who makes a mess of things. While it might not be possible to defend what he or she has done, we will in most cases go to bat and explain that it was a mistake and that he or she didn't really mean any harm.

Of course not every parent understands the program and how it is supposed to work. However most parents seem happy to allow the leaders to lead and are willing to ask questions when something comes along that they don't understand. Maybe I have just been very lucky!! When a parent has come to me I have told them how the program works and I also tell them if I have messed up. By being open and honest I like to think that I have earned their respect. But in order to show them how the program works I have to know how it works and I must fully have bought into it. I sure as heck am not about to apologize for the program or for my following it.

Eamonn.

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

In answer to the original question, I'd have to say a qualified "no".

 

There's always difficulty in getting enough qualifed (meaning "trained" and "capable") leaders, at all levels of Scouting. Those units that have a lot of active parents are truly fortunate.

 

Part of the reason that a "normal" sized troop is usually defined as 25-30 boys is because you need about that many for the patrol system to work well, but also because once you have that many Scouts, you also have enough parents to be able to expect to fill all of the positions that need filling. Smaller troops have a hard time finding enough bodies to fill the spots because they're just aren't that many bodies.

 

Finding a willing adult and getting them trained doesn't make them a leader, tho. The program is good, and the training can be good, but if a Scouter doesn't have an aptitude for working with young boys and young men, they still shouldn't be a Scout leader. There may be a home for them on the Committee perhaps, if, of course , they can get along with adults instead. I'll go out on a bit of limb, for this forum, and say that training is of limited value in developing Scout leaders, as essential as training is. It's a bit like a quarterback in football. There are personal qualities that make a person a good quarterback, besides the requisite physical ability. If a quarterback has those personal qualities, he can join another team, and because he has those leadership skills/qualities, he is already a leader; all he has to do is learn and understand the playbook. Now, he can't play if he doesn't understand the playbook, but if his only quarterback quality is that he's memorized all the plays, he won't be able to lead his team; they won't believe in him or his abilities. I think the same is true of the Scout leader who deals with youth. You can't lead Scouts if you don't know and understand the program (the playbook), but just knowing the leader materials doesn't make you an effective Scout leader. So, I think it's possible that you can have a leader that is following the program TO THE LETTER, and still not be successful because he doesn't have the youth leadership skills. Some of that can be learned but some if it is just "inside" the person, or not.

[anarchist 10]

Venividi,

 

Dead on! (for the most part)

I am constantly amazed that we in this forum are ever ready to read a few lines and label the SM/guy/gal a twit or worse (and usually with no ifs or buts about it!). Perhaps its 'cause we want to help and feel most posters are in some "pain" and being sympathetic seems the right thing to do. Maybe they really are twits...

 

Hummm, 'course could be that we are the twits(?) More likely its a little of "all of the above", with a bunch of "lack of understanding" thrown in for good measure.

 

People all come together in scouting with different objectives, goals, experiences, and to use a popular term..."baggage". Many want their sons to be super stars in everything they do (sometimes even with minimum effort) Some think if you don't sweat blood you haven't worked hard enough and conflict is bound to spring forth from such a divide.

 

Since it sounds like you have been program side (SM? ASM?) Maybe you ought to give being a committee member a try...I have found my "warm and fuzzy hole" as the equipment guy for the troop committee (chief equipment scrounger, fund raiser for gear, primary hauler of the trailer - {does that make me trailer trash?-probably} and QM mentor? I don't have to deal with parents or politics, I get to go on any camp I wish, drink lots of coffee and folks don't mess with me cause they might have to haul the gear or raise their dues ...a joke folks!). Best of all, I get to sit on as many CoRs as I'd like (SM and ASM can't) and I get to ask questions and probe minds that are almost as warped as my own...not to mention practicing mild forms of what I sure some folks would clain to be mental child abuse...(another joke:>)

 

BTW in our troop, Committee Members frequently help the SM with camping and program training (most of us are trained for both types of jobs (SM fundamentals, outdoor leader and committee training, SSD, Safety Afloat, CPR) We have a training coordinator who is great, keeps the adults records of who has what training (when-expirations)and badgers everyone to go get trained or get more training!)

 

After a bit, you might wish to get more "involved" or you might stay as A committee member...slow and steady is not a bad way to start back into things.

 

for the record...I have had many of the same thoughts myself...

I have an 18 yr old who "Eagled out" this past July and a 16 year old who finished "his" year as a guide, likes the outdoor activities but could care less about rank...may even drop scouting...for me the Committee is a nice place to be....

YiS

Anarchist

[EagleInKY 14]

I agree that we tend to jump on the adult leadership too quick. I think it's because we always assume the poster is giving the facts accurately. After all, we're scouts, and scouts are trustworthy. Unfortunately, though, truth often lies in the eyes of the beholder. At least it seems that way.

 

I've started to hesitiate before bashing the leadership. Sometimes I'll say 'assuming your facts are accurate' or 'if this is truly the case'... I think we need to play devil's advocate from time-to-time to get all the facts out.

 

I guess I'm more sensitive to it because I have a parent that's been bashing me over the head for about a year now. He's written letters to council, tried to turn people against me, and even used his son to try and recruit boys to go to another troop. None of this was successful because the truth hasn't been on his side. However, if he were posting here, he would probably tell you some stories like these:

 

- I did not allow his son to run for PL last year. Fact is, his son had committed to serving a 1 year term as Den Chief, so we made him honor his commitment.

 

- I did not allow his son to run for SPL this year. Fact is, his son did not meet the criteria set out by the PLC.

 

- I did not give him a POR, so his rank advancement has been delayed. Fact is, the SPL tried to give him a POR, but he refused. He was mad that he didn't get elected PL. The SPL told him that it could delay his advancement, and the boy said it was okay.

 

- I put our boys in dangerous and threatening situations without regards to their health and safety. Fact is, the district did not provide a port-a-potty at the Klondike Derby and he didn't like it. I think it was more an issue with his son than anything.

 

- I denied his son signoff of a requirement for his next rank. Fact is, Troopmaster made a mistake and credited him with a requirement he hadn't met. When it was caught, it was corrected. He wanted me to credit it to him anyway, even though he hadn't fulfilled the requirement. (A scout is Trustworthy?).

 

And the list goes on. I'm not making these up, these are real comments from him (paraphrased). Some of these were included in letters to the council. So, I think you'll understand why I may be more reluctant to assume the SM is in error.