One reason for written rules...

[Hunt 11]

I was just reading over in the Advancement forum about troops that require Star and Life candidates to do their own service projects, and I've also read about troops where you can't make Eagle until you're 16, must finish MBs in one year, and on and on.

I say this somewhat facetiously, but it's probably better for troops like that to write these rules down, so prospective Scouts and their parents can see up front that they're not following the program. It's better to find out then--and go elsewhere--than to find out at age 15 that the troop has an unwritten rule against Eagles who are "too young." Also, if they write these rules down, maybe a Commissioner or another Scouter will see it and set them straight. Written or unwritten, it makes me sad to read about all these rules that just hold boys back.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

You know, the more I read, the more the idea of the BSA acrredited troop makes sense to me, then again it was my idea

[Laurie 10]

Hunt, while I was CM, I gave copies of policy pages (specific to upcoming events: outdoor guidelines for camping, for instance) to the DLs and incorporated them into the permission slip/information sheets. When I became aware of some confused thinking on advancement, I worked something relating to advancement right into the pack meeting. However, another unit does its best to keep that info from parents so that it can do as it sees fit. Therefore, I've kind of come to the conclusion that those units that want to be by the book and follow the program as BSA intended for it to go will keep the leadership informed as well as the families. Those that have their own way don't pass on the info and sometimes even try to ignore it. OGE, I think I like the idea of accredited troops -- packs too.

[Bob White 20]

Hunt, wouldn't it be better if they just said "we follow the program, policies, and procedures of the BSA" so that the parents would know what to expect and where to find information if they though something wasn't kosher?.

 

So what if they wrote done all the things they did wrong, how would a parent know that was not how things were supposed to be done?

[johndaigler 10]

OGE, Isn't it a great feeling when your own ideas start to make sense!?!?!?!?!

 

 

BW, I believe you want all units to follow BSA policies - advancement, and everything else; and units should be able to state it the way you posted - but many, by choice could not. Doesn't Hunt make a good point that most parents only know what the local unit tells them? If a unit isn't following the rules it would be complicated for a parent to ever figure it out.

 

Maybe, OGE has a point. And maybe Hunt's idea needs to be tweaked a bit, but his point is there.

 

I think National could go a little further out of its way to communicate certain basic issues that continually create conflicts because local units often bend them. The most common example is advancement requirements. The Troop Committtee Handbook and the Scoutmaster Handbook include the "neither add nor subtract from the requirements" statements. Unfortunately, neither the Scout Handbook nor the BS Requirements 2004 is that demonstrative or clear (at least I couldn't find the language in either resource). Certainly, the Scout Handbook is the Scout's, and therefore the parents', first/best resource. Putting the clear statement there would certainly prevent (minimize) misuse on the Unit's part.

 

As for Cubs, the Cub Leader book is clear that the standard for success on Achievements and Electives is the Cub's "best", but doesn't clearly include the admonition against adding or subtracting.

 

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[scoutldr 726]

OGE, the BSA already has an accreditation program. It's called "Quality Unit". Unfortunately, it's a self-reported honor system that doesn't mean much. Perhaps if the Unit Commissioners were empowered to determine which were QU...oh wait. Never mind. We don't have enough Unit Commissioners. Maybe we need District Inspection Teams to go around. We have to get our camps inspected and accredited...why not Units? Of course, it would be on a voluntary basis...kinda like the USCG Auxiliary Courtesy Inspections. Accredited units could have unit numerals in silver mylar instead of white.

[Bob White 20]

Why does the Scout Handbook need to tell scouts not to add or subtract? it's not as if they are the ones doing it.

 

Leaders are told in training, in the scoutmaster handbook and in the advancement policies handbook. if they are going to ignore all those warnings what good will putting into another book they don't read do?

 

Cub leaders are told in Leader Specific Training, in the Cub Leader Handbook and in the advancement policies and procedures manual.

 

Unless leaders follow the program it will not matter how often it is published.

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

I can see Hunt's point.

Let me see what do you think we ought to call the document?

How about: Forget all that Scout Stuff and Do It My Way.

I also can't help thinking if these people are so big on rules why they don't understand that A Scout Is Obedient. Or have they made so many changes that they no longer think they belong to the BSA?

Eamonn

[Laurie 10]

I see it too, and it is sad that those extra expectations are placed on boys. Not to mention wrong. That is why sharing that BSA literature is so important, but even still, some will ignore it. The number of excuses and justifications for changing the program is amazing to me! Here is part of a conversation, one of the easier ones by the way, that I had in trying to understand how a unit used BSA resources to meet a youth need:

 

After a committee meeting where the struggle the new SPL was having was discussed, I had a discussion on the way to our cars with the SM:

 

Me: "I was wondering if SPL would be interested in the upcoming Junior Leader Training?"

 

SM: "We don't do that, and that wouldn't help him anyway."

 

Me: "Oh, so then does the troop provide this training for him?"

 

SM: "We give them the opportunity, and it comes together."

 

Me: "Ok, but would the resources be helpful? Perhaps his frustration would be lessened if he met with other youth to get the training. He could find that there are common frustrations and learn how to work through them, and he'd also learn new ways to approach his role."

 

SM, now laughing: "You are way too idealistic and don't get it. You think this stuff is easy, but it isn't. We know what the boys really need."

 

Me: "But this boy is, by your admission, frustrated. He has not held prior leadership roles. What I see is a need for him to have the tools to do his job rather than lose him to his continuing frustration. If the training isn't possible, I have copies of the SPL and PL handbooks. Perhaps he could borrow these?"

 

SM: "Those books don't help. You think they do, but he won't read them anyway. You are too focused on being by the book."

 

Me: "But what options does he have? I get that you think I don't have a clue, but I still see a frustrated boy with a role to carry out who is not equipped to do it, and I have not heard of any help being given to him."

 

Laughing and shaking his head, he went one way and I another. I was not surprised but was saddened to hear that this boy had stopped coming to troop meetings. Since he was so welcoming to my son, and my son really looked up to him, it wasn't unusual for me to ask how my son how he was. One night, after a meeting, when I asked, my son said, "He wasn't there again, and I think he quit. Can you blame him? He was the SPL, but no one listened and no one helped. I'd have quit too." I truly believe that the outcome would have been different had this boy had a chance to use the BSA materials and training. The loss of even one youth due to frustration is too high a price to me to avoid following the program.

[Eamonn 61]

Laurie,

Thanks for a eye opening posting.

I have seen so many keen ASM's attend training's and learn just the basics, I feel bad for them as I know that when they get back to their home units all the good stuff will never see the light of day the "We don't do it that way" will kick in.

It is such a shame.

I wonder how many Scouts we lose a year thanks to these bylaw writers?

Worse still how many Scouts are asked to leave for not following a rule that should never have been there in the first place?

Eamonn.

[Laurie 10]

One thing I should add: this unit had written rules.

 

Eamonn, I'd say it's a pleasure to share this post, but it is one of the things that frustrated to me to no end. The reason this particular conversation stuck with me from so long ago is that it really did seem easy to help this boy.

[Hunt 11]

"Hunt, wouldn't it be better if they just said "we follow the program, policies, and procedures of the BSA" so that the parents would know what to expect and where to find information if they thought something wasn't kosher?."

 

Alas, I suspect that many of the units we are complaining about would feel perfectly comfortable making such a claim--because they are following their memories of what the program was back when they were Scouts. They don't even know that they are deviating from the program--they just "know" (for example) that you're supposed to rigorously test Scout skills in Boards of Review and "fail" boys who can't tie their knots. Some of them are well-meaning people who haven't been trained and are just floundering around.

I guess what I'd like to see is yet another BSA publication--a guide for parents to Scouting methods and procedures. It would pull together some of the material that's in the Handbook, the Guide to Safe Scouting, and other materials, and would be designed to educate parents on the way BSA units are supposed to function. If something like that existed, it might discourage troops from developing rules (written or unwritten) that deviate from what parents are told they should expect. As somebody mentioned, currently parents with no scouting experience won't know that there is anything wrong if the SM tells them, for example, that he doesn't allow young Scouts to make Eagle.

[Eamonn 61]

Hunt,

Sometime back my dear Mother-in-law was going through some stuff and I think that something like you describe was a BSA publication.

My memory of the book isn't that clear, in fact it is very foggy. It wasn't very big about A4 paper size, the cover was white with orange print and black lettering. The artwork inside was black pen and ink drawings and dated it to I'm guessing 50's or maybe 60's. I think it was titled A Parent's Guide??

I only glanced through it.

With so much information on web sites now I'm not sure if there really is a need for such a guide.

I do have copies of the BSA Rules and Regulations and the Charter and Bylaws of the BSA, strange thing is people only ever ask to see them when they are upset about something and want to try and prove that they are right and have been treated wrongly. As a general rule they are not much help.

I have never been big on the "Information Welcome Guide Book" that some units hand out to new members, I much preferred face to face meetings with the parents and a monthly newsletter.

Communication has always been on top of the list when it comes to Leadership, being able to receive and pass on clear information is a skill we teach our Patrol Leaders and our adult leaders.

While I like the old KISMIF, Keep It Simple Make It Fun, a pal of mine changed it to: Keep It Secret Make It Fail. I'm sure that he got it from someone else.

One problem that I have with these guides is that people feel that they have to add their own 2 cents. I feel the same way about certain web sites, while they do most of the time echo or state what the BSA policy or rule is, they feel that they have to take that extra step.

Back a couple of threads back?? We seen the blue card rule posted. There is no blue card rule. Sure it is a good idea for Scouts to finish what they start but we don't know why a Scout isn't completing the Merit Badges that he has started.

A guide that states what the BSA Field Uniform is, might be a useful tool, but people seem to want to keep adding the where, when and what parts and then adding penalties for not complying to this what, where and when. The uniform was never ever a part of Scouting that was supposed to be a hurdle for our members.

I also very much doubt if the people who are trying to slow Scouts down in advancing are going to put something in black and white that puts them in a bad light.

Eamonn.

[johndaigler 10]

First, I'm not an advocate of unecessary rules and rulebooks. . . . I'm sure that surprises many of you!

 

However, working with Cubs we use written and/or spoken rules to help young boys see how the Law of the Pack and the CS Promise can have everyday meaning for them; and, help them choose situationally appropriate actions. The Law and Promise are great starting points, but the Cubs benefit from explanation and examplification (though I think I may have just made up that word!).

 

Just as important, however, is the value these examples and explanations have for adults - Leaders and Parents. Adults involved in Cubbing are at such widely varying places in their Scouting knowledge and experience, that clarifying and explaining expectations is necessary for success and safety. I'm not talking about adding unique local rules, I'm just talking about bringing the knowledge and experiences of trained Scouters to the masses. An obvious group in need is Tiger parents, but it's every bit as true for the whole group.

 

Furthermore, my Unit is putting into print many Pack policies for future leaders. Cub Scout leaders are notoriously short-term and undertrained, so rather than allow future leaders to ignorantly re-invent wheels, our hope is to establish clearly thought out structures that can be used and/or evaluated and modified by future leaders. You may have seen my comments elsewhere about "Stewardship".

 

 

BW, publicizing additional National policies in the Scout Handbook would help protect Scouts and Parents from Scouters who are undertrained and/or undercommitted to the National Program. I'm guessing that Hunt's example correctly highlights a few nagging situations, like "neither add nor delete requirements".

 

Putting that knowledge directly into the hands of Scouts and parents would greatly diminish the ability of local Leaders to misuse their authority. It's difficult to sell junk to an informed customer base. It's for this reason, among others, that schools require teachers (professors) to distribute syllabi and grading practices. It's not considered enough that these documents exist filed away somewhere, but often students sign that they've received this information.

 

Actually, at first thought, I'd add two-deep leadership to the Scout Handbook as well, but that might create rather than resolve concerns. I'd have have to think about that and hear what others thought. I suppose, you could argue that mentioning two leaders for camping on page 223 does that but it's less comprehensive than what I'm considering.

 

jd(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[evmori 11]

How does the Scout Oath & Law deal with meeting times? How does the Scout Oath & Law deal with dues? How does the Scout Oath & Law deal with duty rosters? How does the Scout Oath & Law deal with the meeting time to go camping?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10