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Curiosity also makes me ask, are the leaders required to sign similar contracts, and if this were a leader's FB page would he be asked to resign?


What's un-Scoutlike for the goose......


I do want to say if it seems like anyone is being to heavy-handed with the criticism, I think everyone is in agreement that you and the SM are doing a great job of working through this potential mine field.

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" I talked to the SM and he thinks that we do not need to hang the boy. He wants him to offer a deep apology and learn his lesson and move on. He says if the other Scout leaders want to walk away over this then so be it."


Sounds like the SM has a handle on it.


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This is exactly why the SM is in charge of the boys of the troop and not the UC or the other parents. Scouts make mistakes and need to learn from them and move on. This is the heart of what BSA is about...character development.


No one can mess up the program like a lot of self rightous adults. The SM nailed this one on the head.

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"The SM nailed this one on the head."


Except for the "deep apology" thing.


I wonder what the Scout's Facebook privacy settings are?


Crossramwedge, what is the file name on YouTube?



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Look guys it is not a contract, its a statement that in all areas of his life he will hold up the morals and values that are embedded in the Scout oath and law and do so daily. Just a tool used to let him know that he has entered leadership in the scouts and that eyes are now upon him. He is in the spotlight. Both youth and adult leaders are watching and following his lead. Our adults are also held to high standards. Pray tell what is wrong with that?


Believe it are not, Yes an adult would be approached if they put something up on his Facebook like this scout did and if on that same Facebook page he also had touted all his adventures in Scouting and mentioned the Troop regularly as this Scout does. Yes he probably would be approached. Why? Because eyes are upon the troop through him.


Before it starts, NO we do not monitor scout/adult media sites. We do not have spies following people around. He is not going to be asked to resign. The SM decided that right off the bat.

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Had an adult leader in the pack that was liking a lot of female adult entertainers, cough cough. I suggested that he should stop doing it as the parents and some scouts see this too.


After one of the moms mentioned his questionable taste in women he unfriended all of us and set his profile to private.

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its a statement that in all areas of his life he will hold up the morals and values that are embedded in the Scout oath and law and do so daily. Just a tool used to let him know that he has entered leadership in the scouts and that eyes are now upon him.


Yah, hmmm...


We adults get sorta weird about this stuff sometimes.


Here I thought it was the duty of all scouts to strive to live up to the Oath and Law in their daily life. ;)


It's sorta odd to make an explicit requirement of living up to the Oath because people are watching you. Character is what we do when nobody is watching us, eh?


Crossramwedge, do yeh really think that your boys aren't aware of that expectation by the point they're stepping up to leadership roles? It seems from here like you're running a fine program, and that step is at best redundant. If it's not, why not think about doing a better job on the Oath and Law with "regular" scouts, rather than requiring paper statements from leaders?


Just MHO.



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Generally speaking, I'm opposed to coerced apologies. If people want to apologize for some bad act, that's fine.


But requiring people to apologize for something they may not agree with might require people to apologize for something they didn't do, or which they don't think was wrong.


Better to just punish someone if they engaged in bad behavior rather than try to require that they aplogize.


A coerced apology is a degrading form of punishment in my opinion. On the other hand, an apology freely made is a real act of contrition and regret.


Frankly, I find this incident rather trivial and blown out of proportion by the adults involved, especially if the Scout decides that the posting was a mistake and he decides to remove it.


If he decides he wants to leave it as it is, that's a tougher question. What political opinions are Scouts and Scout leaders not free to hold or support in legal ways?

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The Parable of the Wrong Fish might help him understand his mistake and that an un-coerced apology might be wise.



An aquarist had in his aquarium a brightly colored fish he liked very much. A Pseudocheilinus hexataeniaudocheilinus, a sixline wrasse, it was. There are over 600 species in the Labridae (wrasse) family, so it was common for aquarists to have one among their collection. But it was taboo to publicly display any species from the wrasse family. An aquarist publicly displaying one would be shunned for reasons this aquarist chalked up to silly superstition. He was having none of it. "I'll not be held back by the crowd's silly taboos" he said, as he proudly posted pictures of the fish on his Facebook page. But soon all his aquarists colleagues shunned him and the impact on his life was not worth what small satisfaction he'd gotten from making those pictures public. He learned that facebook isn't the place to show your wrasse.

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A good leadership lesson is in here...sometimes we apologize to make the other person feel better and not necessarily for ourselves. In Scout Law terms this is being courteous, but it is also a lesson in real world leadership. There is nothing wrong with encouraging the Scout to apologize for any hurt feelings that the incident may have caused.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

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Cross, I think you should have mentioned you were the CC/COR in your opening post. You didn't mention that until your third post, 33 posts into the discussion. Tampa mentioned you were an ASM but I don't know where he got that from. Thing is if you come here for advice then you need to give the whole story right out of the gate.


My opinion stands, let the SM handle it. If I had a CC/COR going to District about troop problems then they would be looking for a new SM. Our policy is no one goes to District, leaders or parents unless it's a YP problem of course, that goes to the SE.


My last discussion over a parent complaint to the DE went like this:

DE - Mr. SM I had a call yesterday from one of your parents about two kids fighting at a camping trip are you aware of this?

Me - Yep I sure am.

DE - Then it's taken care of?

Me - Sure is.

DE - Great, have a nice day.


Interesting that the DEs always call the SM and not the CORs.


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Generally speaking, I'm opposed to coerced apologies.


Yah, I'm sorta with SeattlePioneer here. At the same time, I do reckon that sometimes learning how to say "I'm sorry" is somethin' boys have to be taught, eh? As the necessary first step to repairing a relationship that they want to repair. Some boys from some families I've found have never learned that skill. More to the point, as Calloo's parable points out, if yeh don't apologize, yeh can expect that the relationship will not be repaired, and indeed da consequences from that should hit the lad, because consequences are a part of learning. "The majority of ASMs no longer are willing to work with you" might well mean that he is excluded from campouts where those ASMs are necessary leaders.... until he repairs da relationship.


Now along the way, I reckon it's also a good thing to teach boys (and by osmosis, adults ;) how to accept apologies graciously. How it's inappropriate after you've accepted an apology to bring it up again; how it's considered courteous to take the person apologizing at his word.


Now in this case, it honestly seems just as, if not more appropriate that da adults in question should apologize to the boy and the SM. Their behind-the-back and over-the-top behavior (and the fact that they are adults) I find more disturbing than a teenager posting a typical Vegas comedy routine on Facebook. Sauce for the goose and all that, eh? Boys learn by the example we set.


Perhaps a "coerced" apology from the adults as a condition of their continued membership is in order, especially if one is expected of the lad? Or if yeh would not have such an expectation of registered adults in your program, why would yeh have the expectation for the boy?




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