SPLs: Pro and con

[shortridge 184]

 

In the thread on removing an SPL, one of the points brought up was that a troop doesn't NEED a Senior Patrol Leader. I find myself tending to agree with that point of view, for several reasons, and was curious about others' thoughts.

 

First, with most troops (in my experience) having between 2-4 patrols, there really isn't that much to for an SPL to coordinate. A larger troop with 7-8 patrols might find such a position of greater utility.

 

Secondly, creating the SPL job generally reduces the importance of the Patrol Leader's position, and makes him not the most important leader in the troop. If key decisions are being made by the SPL and not the PLC, then the patrols immediately lose their importance as well. Troop-level positions, except in large troops where their job is really to coordinate, generally tend to detract from the Patrol Method.

 

Third, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Even in a larger troop, the SPL's role can easily be filled by the PLC by way of group decisions. The "figurehead roles" can be rotated (attending SPL meetings at summer camp, calling commands at flag ceremonies, etc.).

 

Thoughts?

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

That pretty much says it all doesn't it?

 

You can't have a CEO, Pres, VP, Administrator, Asst Administrator Executive Board, Dept Supervisor, Section Chief .......over only 3 workers!

 

 

 

But having no experience in scouts myself......I have to ask:

 

Is there a way to have a SPL ( if there are enought Patrols ) advance from a PL position?

 

Know what I mean? You have a few PL's and the boys are ready to vote another PL...could one of the current PL's become the SPL?

 

I ask only because it seems that if these guys really enjoy a great experience in scouting, then the SPL may become a SM or ASM in a few years.

[Eagle92 110]

Me personally, I think a troop with 2 or more patrols needs an SPL. Why for a variety of reasons. First the SPL acts as a mentor and counselor to the PLs. I know that is technically the SM's job, but in the troop growing up, that is how it worked out: older scouts mentored and trained the younger ones. Second the SPLs keep the PLs in line, on time, etc in reference to program. SPL runs the program that the PLC decides upon, and ensures it is implemented. Third, the SPL, having a little more experience (hopefully) can advise and comment on the programming that the PLC want to do, i.e. giving recommendations, looking at additional activities available at a location, etc. Finally when it comes to the PLC voting, in an even numbere of patrols, the SPL is the tie breaker.

[boomerscout 35]

"Is there a way to have a SPL ( if there are enought Patrols ) advance from a PL position?

Know what I mean? You have a few PL's and the boys are ready to vote another PL...could one of the current PL's become the SPL?"

Sure, why not? Patrol members elect their APL and PL. And, PLC elects the SPL

Potential SPLs are already known throughout the troop, and are subject to recall for heading really boring program

[Gary_Miller 10]

boomerscout; "Sure, why not? Patrol members elect their APL and PL. And, PLC elects the SPL

Potential SPLs are already known throughout the troop, and are subject to recall for heading really boring program"

 

There are only two elected positions with in a troop, the SPL and the PL. All other positions are appointed by the SPL and the PL.

 

 

[Kudu 186]

I think it was EagleDad who once wrote that about 5% of the population are natural leaders. I don't know from where he got that statistic, but I have always found it to be true. In a Troop of 20 Scouts there is usually one natural leader. All the Scouts know who he is, even if the adults do not.

 

In a Scout-run Troop he is always at the center, moving things along. In an adult-led Troop, he is that ring-leader at the back of the room who causes all the trouble.

 

When your natural leader is one of the Patrol Leaders, it brings out the adolescent testosterone. The other Patrol Leaders quickly figure out how he runs his Patrol and then they begin to compete.

 

When the natural leader is the SPL, the Patrol Leaders tend to follow him rather than compete, and then everyone begins to think in terms of the Troop rather than their own Patrol because the SPL has all the good ideas.

 

Unfortunately in my own Scout-run (as opposed to "Scout-led") Troop, the SPL patch always began to look good to the natural leaders after a while. One time the best one organized a Troop election (against my advice to keep it in the PLC) and promptly lost to a less able rival who stiffed us at the parking lot for two (2) High Adventure outings before he mercifully resigned :-/

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

[Eagle92 110]

Kudu,

Not trying to change the subject, but I am interested as I am used to troop wide elections for SPL. When the PLC decides, is it among one of the PLs or an "outsider" i.e. a scout not on the PLC. If it's one of the PLC members, do the patrol hold another election for PL, or does the APL move up?(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Eagledad 2777]

My style of Scoutmastering was training the Scouts to run the troop the same as they would if the adults didn't show up. In that vision, the SPL was being trained the scoutmaster's responsibilities. What does the scoutmaster do in your troop? That is what the SPL would be doing if the adults didn't show up.

 

Barry

[Gary_Miller 10]

According to "The SPL Handbook", the SPL is elected by the troop. "All youth members of the troop are eligible to vote."

 

According to "The PL Handbook", the members of the patrol elect the PL. The PL appoints the APL and other positions within the patrol. If the PL is no longer available to hold that position the the patrol should elect a new PL.

[boomerscout 35]

"Accordings" can, and, many times, should be custom tailored to the individual troop. Our patrols elect their APL a half term out of step with their election for PL. The PL is then responsible for the initial training in leadership for the APL. When the term of office for the PL ends, the APL becomes the new PL.

Can the former PL again become PL? Sure, although most go on to troop-wide POR and project leaderships. Whenever a PL becomes SPL, the APL becomes the PL and an election is held for a new APL.

[Kudu 186]

Gary_Miller writes:

 

According to "The SPL Handbook", the SPL is elected by the troop. "All youth members of the troop are eligible to vote."

 

Gary,

 

BoomerScout and Eagle92 refer to the tradition of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Patrol Method:

 

The Senior Patrol Leader is elected by the Troop Leaders' Council [PLC]. His appointment is authorized by the Troop Committee on the Scoutmaster's recommendation (Handbook for Scoutmasters, 4th edition, page 67).

 

Shortridge's method is in the tradition of Robert Baden-Powell's Patrol System, in which the Senior Patrol Leader is optional:

 

"238. (i) A Troop Leader [sPL] may, if desired, be appointed by the S.M. in consultation with the Court of Honour [PLC] ("Policy, Organization, & Rules, 1938, http://inquiry.net/traditional/por/groups.htm ).

 

Eagle92 writes:

 

I am used to troop wide elections for SPL. When the PLC decides, is it among one of the PLs or an "outsider" i.e. a scout not on the PLC. If it's one of the PLC members, does the patrol hold another election for PL, or does the APL move up?

 

Hillcourt writes: "Since the Senior Patrol Leader is expected to work with the Patrol Leaders and assist them in their jobs, he should know what it means to run a Patrol. Generally speaking, a Boy Scout or Explorer with an outstanding record as Patrol Leader makes the best Senior Patrol Leader."

 

In other words, the SPL is expected to have extensive experience in leading his own Patrol Hikes and Patrol Campouts separately from the Troop. So usually the PLC would select one of their own.

 

The Patrol Leader was expected to "train his Assistant Patrol Leader to lead the Patrol in his absence." In this era a Patrol Leader had real responsibility. The APL could either be elected by the Patrol or appointed by the PL, but the SM was instructed to caution the PL that "the choice should be governed by 'Who will make the best Assistant for the Patrol?' and not 'Which fellow do I like best?'"

 

The Patrol Leader Training course was where both the Patrol Leaders and the Assistant Patrol Leaders actually learned how to take their Patrols hiking and camping without adult supervision. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

It took six months to complete, so (all things being equal) it would be logical for the APL to step up.

 

Remember that in the days before POR requirements and leadership formulas, As a general rule, a Patrol Leader stays in office as long as he gets results, or until he moves into another leadership position in the Troop.

 

Terms of office were only used in "some cases" where a face-saving method of getting rid of Patrol Leaders who can not lead a Patrol without adult supervision might be necessary "This may simplify matters where a boy proves a poor Patrol Leader and may have to give up his job to a better leader (Handbook for Scoutmasters, 4th edition, page 50).

 

I agree with BoomerScout that "Accordings" can, and, many times, should be custom tailored to the individual troop. .

 

In other words, the purpose of threads like this is to give Scoutmasters a bunch of different models of how the Patrol Method can work.

 

In general I agree with Shortridge. His describes a Troop as Baden-Powell envisioned it, a loose confederation of fiercely independent Patrols. That is how I like to structure a Troop.

 

But I make a distinction between "Boy-Led" and "Boy-Run." In a "Boy-Led" Troop the Scoutmaster picks the structure and the Scouts lead within that particular theory of Scouting.

 

I use a "Boy-Run" model in which I switch theories of Scouting as the natural leaders become self-aware.

 

In my last Troop the dominate natural leader was an NYLT staffer, so he took the Troop away from the Hillcourt model and introduced a whole lot of corporate team-building exercises (which have more resonance when the Patrols are spaced widely). He did learn his lesson about Troop-wide elections.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction" (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918).

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

 

[Eagle92 110]

Thanks Kudu for the info. I agree with you 100% that an SPL does need time as a PL.

[Eagledad 2777]

Our scouts knew that I wanted them to pursue at least two terms of PL before they moved toward a troop office. I actually wanted more terms but most scouts who serve two are ambitious and time is short from their perspective. I don't like Patrol Leaders before the age 13 and I really preferred 14. Our guys work pretty hard and 13 year olds just aren't mature enough for that responsibility, except for the rare natural leaders and even they don't grow much from their experience until after puberty.

 

There is an unwritten expectation that our troop had of officer positions scouts are expected to experience before they run for SPL. Most go that route, a couple of the good ones may skip one of the positions. But they were good enough to make up for the skills of the position they skipped.

 

As for the "boy run" "boy led", I guess we all have our personal definitions and expect everyone to accept then as written in stone for all to read. But I have always use the "boy run" term as well because each scout has the opportunity to define himself in the troop and make the program better. A troop won't function well unless all the boys buy into the boy run concept.

 

I am not a fan of the SM picking the leaders because frankly, there are not that many adults who can do it right. Talk about favorites and popularity. I also think the scouts need a system that they can rely on to change the course of leadership themselves. Waiting for the SM to pick his next favorite can be very frustrating for those not happy with the present favorite. Some folks keep referring to elections as popularity contest. Well I guess, buy our guys work very hard and only the scouts willing to work that hard run for the position. I think that is how the cream is really supposed to rise to the top. It works most of the time.

 

I said all along and to expecially Kudu that leading a troop is an individual thing no matter what youth program we are in. The good scout leaders do good, the bad ones don't. But the vast majority of them grow to get better and that is what a program must count on to survive. I know this was an issue with Badon Powell, I have a book on his write ups of adults. Strikingly, he was dealing with the same adult problems back then as we discuss today. Human behavior does not change.

 

I can't imagine a troop without an SPL, but that is OK by me because we were a very good boy run program with a very good boy run reputation. But its that custom tailoring thing that makes it work so well for all the good troops. I've met a lot of really good boy run troops, none were exactly like ours.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I'd say generally most troops don't need an SPL. We have a heck of a lot of one-patrol troops out there (or troops with two patrols that really should be one patrol troops because da patrols are too small to be viable). Most of da rest of the troops are in the mid-sizes around BP's ideal mid-30s to 50-ish. At those sizes, an SPL might be helpful, but often isn't needed. Very few reach the size of Eagledad's old unit.

 

Da thing I see with SPLs a lot is the sort of thing Eagledad hints at, with the "SPL being trained for the SM position." In adult run units, there's a sort of pretend youth run thing that happens where the SPL is taught to act like the running adult... essentially, like the Scoutmaster. Those units make this SPL-as-Scoutmaster thing their version of youth run. It works OK, but it really doesn't have the depth and power that a real youth run patrol program has, where there's a collaboration of equally strong PLs of different interests and skills.

 

I think that's da easiest trap to fall into for newer SMs. Patrol method youth leadership is a hard thing to "get", but SM/SPL/Boss style is easier. Even the no-adults thing can be a trap, if by no adults we mean "run it as though there were adult-like controllers". The real test of patrol method youth leadership is when the lads need neither the adults nor the artificial adult structure.

 

So in that way, I think it's helpful for young SMs (and old SMs who want to learn a new trick) to dispense with da SPL and try to build a robust patrol method and set of Patrol Leaders first. At least until the kids feel a need to "coordinate". Thing is, when that happens I think the lads are less likely to choose one "coordinator" so much as they split up duties. Da "one coordinator" thing is usually an adult thing.

 

Hardest thing as always is gettin' the adults to grok patrol method youth leadership. Kudu is often right in that, though I reckon more honey than gall is called for sometimes .

 

Know what I mean? You have a few PL's and the boys are ready to vote another PL...could one of the current PL's become the SPL?

 

I know a few troops where da PLC elects the SPL, rather than the whole troop. Seems to work well for 'em. Has the advantage in that da PLC has seen the fellow work on things, eh? They're much less susceptible to a funny speech by da group clown.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Thomas54 10]

 

Eliminating the SPL could improve the development of the PL and the patrols themselves. Often the SPL is just not capable of developing his PL. The SPL doesn't understand the nuances of director through mentoring. Then when the scoutmaster advises the SPL to consider leading an activity the SM can only watch as his well intentioned advise is delivered in a series of commands and decrees.

 

I think the program is written and may work well for the SPL to be in 10-11th grade. However, we typically get 7-8 graders as SPL's.