Summer Camp- Cook Yourself or Dining Hall?

[desertrat77 1144]

Brent, I'm completely on board with your assessment. I must admit I chuckled when I read of your request for the older scouts not to take a class right after breakfast.

 

At the camp I mentioned earlier (last session, almost no firewood left)--lifesaving MB was offered once a day, early in the morning. Several of us took it and breakfast was always a disaster--rushed, full of disagreements, poorly prepared, horrible clean up--but we wanted to knock this MB out, so we gutted it out.

 

Otherwise, patrol cooking is the way to go, if at all possible.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Our troop always (at least as long as I have been involved) goes to a camp with a dining hall and, as far as I know, no opportunity to do patrol cooking. I have lobbied for some variety in camp selection, both in going to different camps and in sometimes doing patrol cooking, but my view has not prevailed to date. I do like cheffy's troop's idea of splitting up the meals between patrol cooking and dining hall, but I think if that were done at a camp that has a very active program during the day, I would switch the meals around: Breakfast and lunch in the dining hall, dinner in the campsites, by patrol.

[funscout 11]

Our troop has endless opportunities for patrol (or self) cooking. The boys can cook at every troop meeting if they choose to, and of course they cook at every campout. Our boys prefer the dining hall for summer camp, because it allows them the time to take 5 or 6 merit badges or have free time for open swim, open rifle, etc. The boys can cook anytime, back home, but can't do rifle shooting, swimming, etc. at every troop meeting.

 

As a parent, I would rather see my money go towards my boys learning new skills and earning merit badges at camp, rather than time focused on cooking and clean up which my boys have plenty of opportunities to do back home.

[funscout 11]

Another plus for dining hall at camp is the socialization with other troops. It's so gratifying to me to see our boys branch out and mingle with scouts from other troops that we sit near. Also, mail call is quite a highlight at each lunch and dinner. One of our special needs boys always did a "victory lap" on the way up to receive his mail, and the whole camp rejoiced with him. We felt like one big family of scouts, instead of several different troops, each doing their own thing. If we had stayed at our campsite during meals, then I would not have gotten to know other scout leaders and boys as well as I did.

[GKlose 24]

At the patrol-oriented camp we attended this summer, there was no net loss of either program time or free time. The "sacrifice", if you will, was idle time. What had been idle time before and after meals at a "dining hall" camp, was no longer idle time for a cook and his assistant, or the cleanup guy and his assistant. In fact, they were reinforcing the fundamentals of the patrol method, so I'd argue it was a fairly important part of their summer camp experience.

 

Also, there was no net loss of socialization either. It just happened someplace other than a dining hall...at the parade field, for example, in program areas, and in camp-wide games.

 

What we missed out on: the noisy dining hall experience with singing. But that was more transferred to the camp-wide campfires and at the parade field.

 

Did our guys miss out on anything? Not at all...

 

Guy

[Venividi 35]

There are more dining hall camps than patrol cooking camps because there is more demand for them. Patrol cooking is seen as more "work", less time for merit badges, less time for fun (according to various scouters that I have talked to whose troops attend dining hall summer camps).

 

My experience is the same as that of GKlose and BrentAllen.

I have seen that a week of cooking at summercamp does more to foster patrol teamwork than an entire year of cooking at weekend campouts. The main benefit is not learning cooking skills, but is the fact that the patrol has a goal that REQUIRES all to pull together for an entire week.

 

I find that when scouters perceive patrol cooking is work, that attitude is picked up by the scouts, and they try to avoid it. When scouters perceive cooking as a fun, creative activity that is done together, the scouts learn that view. As I have fun cooking, my scouts did also.

 

I think it comes down to what a unit's scouters want for their scouts. Emphasis on merit badges and individual advancement (i.e. "me")? - dining hall camp cant be beat. Emphasis on group citizenship (i.e. "we")? - patrol cooking camp is the way to go.

 

 

[GKlose 24]

VV -- you've hit my nail right on the head. I feel there is no better teamwork exercise that a patrol trying to pull off a meal together. Not everyone cooks, not everyone cleans up, but the team needs to work together to see it happen. If they're already a well-functioning team, so much the better. They may not have anything to learn -- but then again, there may be a younger scout or two that does need to learn, and the patrol can help him.

 

I've heard the same arguments about time from other Scouters ("I don't want my kids wasting their time cooking in camp" and "parents expect advancement from summer camp") and I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way. There was no loss of program or free time in our case. There was a loss of idle time, for a couple of scouts at a time, but the advances in teamwork were worth it, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I felt gratified when a couple of scouts were talking about how what they had cooked was better than what they had in the dining hall the year before. And they had no clue about the strides they had just made in teamwork.

 

Along the way, I learned a little more about our scouts -- I learned that one Scout, his first time in summer camp, was willing to jump in any time to help with anything, and that he loves to cook. I also learned that another, older scout, likes to putz around and delay things, and then ask for assistance from everyone else when he's "in the weeds" and running late.

 

I also learned that it isn't so easy dealing with multiple food issues -- our 6-scout patrol had a vegetarian and one with severe food allergies. The patrol leader had to make some adjustments in the duty roster (the vegetarian did not want to cook or clean up anything related to meat, and the food allergy scout couldn't handle eggs or milk products), and we had to make some adjustments with the commissary. It went even farther -- the griddle, for example, was used to make french toast and then had to be cleaned thoroughly before making bacon, to avoid cross-contamination issues. This was great stuff for our patrol to deal with, and they did great.

 

Guy

[Knot Head 10]

We attend a camp that offers both patrol & dining hall and annually let the boys vote on it. They also vote on where to go to summer camp. Apparently they like our council camp since they have voted to return several years in a row and also vote for mess hall. The bad experience (long story) the last time we went elsewhere probably is the cause. Most scouts go four years to summer camp. A few go 5 or 6 that want to take lifesaving or COPE or something like that. The adults step out during the voting meetings the scouts hold and let the SLP run it. We step out in the hope we dont unduly influence the voting. Im sure we influence them on some of their votes on the annual calendar, activities, summer camp, mess hall versus dining hall and other items they decide for themselves. We try not to, but Im sure we influence them in ways we dont even realize.

[Venividi 35]

Knot Head,

 

You might want to consider doing a little guided discovery with your PLC before the decide about cooking at next years summer camp. Ask them for their assessment of how the younger scouts work together as a patrol. If your troop is typical, the newer scouts dont do that very well. There is also typically very few activities done as a patrol other than sitting together at the dining hall. Then ask them for ideas on ways for them to provide daily opportunities for the scouts to work together as patrols at next years summer camp. They may never have considered that they as the PLC have a responsibility to provide a program that helps the new scouts develop such teamwork. That then provides the SM with the opportunity to explain how cooking as a patrol helps the younger scouts to develop teamwork.

 

A SM that I know told me how their troop had switched to a different summer camp that provided only dining hall food service. His older scouts noticed that the new scouts were less disciplined and had poorer skills after a couple of years there, and asked to switch back to a patrol cooking camp because of that.

[HICO_Eagle 93]

I grew up with patrol cooking and was introduced to dining halls when I became an adult Scouter.

 

For what it's worth, I find the dining hall superior at summer camp. A troop can always exercise patrol cooking on its own activities but the dining hall is frequently a much more efficient means of feeding the Scouts and spreading campwide information. Troops also have the opportunity to learn how to handle larger events if you use the mess hall operation as a teaching experience.

 

My troop had 8 core members at one time and I think 5 (maybe 6) of us made Eagle. I think our exercise of the patrol method -- including planning and going on campouts on our own -- had more to do with that than how we got our food at summer camp.

 

Stosh's quote of a camp with 3 MB sessions for a mess hall operation and 5 MB sessions for patrol cooking is quite the opposite of my experience at Camps Pupukea in Hawaii, Alexander in Colorado, Bowman and Rock Enon in Virginia and a couple others. I wasn't too impressed with Bowman (or Goshen at all) but Alexander and Rock Enon had very solid programs and mess hall operations with our boys earning 4-5 MBs each.

 

For those of you extolling the virtues of patrol cooking at summer camp -- why is this such a novel experience for your youth? Why aren't they getting those experiences and benefits from your normal activities?

[VigilEagle04 10]

I've never been to a camp in the states where there was patrol method cooking. Although the option was available (the dining hall staff would pass you the stuff you needed if requested), my troop never took that option. In a way, summer camp was our vacation camp. Sure, we did service projects during down time and did all the extra activities and such, but it was nice not having all the typical stuff to concern ourselves with.

 

Now, at Haliburton Scout Reserve in Canada, there was patrol based cooking. That was definitely a good time. Each day, someone would motor (the camp was on a lake, you had to canoe/kayak/row/motor boat everywhere you went) over to the grocery store on camp and pick up food for the day. While I can say it was a great experience and a lot of fun, the camp was so much different than U.S. camps I've been too, I can't say for sure if it would have cut into the program.

 

By the way, if anyone wants to do a special summer camp trip, Haliburton is an awesome time. I just recommend also taking a trip to your local camp for those that need advancement.

 

 

[mikecummings157 10]

We drive our boys hard all year long to Patrol cook on weekend campouts, so the Dining Hall @ summer camp is a great change of pace. The camp we attend has a very spirited staff and makes the dining hall experience extra special.

[Venividi 35]

 

HICO_Eagle writes:

 

"For those of you extolling the virtues of patrol cooking at summer camp -- why is this such a novel experience for your youth? Why aren't they getting those experiences and benefits from your normal activities?"

 

I haven't seen it as a novel experience, but then, I am not looking for novelty. Rather, as a scouter, I was looking for ways to get patrols to come together as a team rather than as a collection of individuals.

 

My experience and observations:

On weekend campouts, there is a subset of patrol members each month.

At summer camp, the patrol members are working together for an entire week.

 

On weekend campouts, a month (or two or three for some boys goes by, and much of the teamwork skills have been lost because of the length of the intervening time.

 

On weekend campouts, a patrol member that doesn't do his share for meal preparation is worked around, ignored, or sloppy work is let slide. At summer camp, the patrol members dont tolerate this for an entire week, resulting in peer pressure.

 

That said, I do think that teamwork through the patrol method could be achieved by another activity - perhaps the entire patrol backpacking every day for a week, with all the necessary tasks of breaking camp and setting up camp every day. Or rock climbing every day for a week, with getting equipment, checking it, setting up, caring for it, etc. I have never seen a patrol do this at Summer camp.

 

However, my observations at summer camp, that other than cooking and eating together, there is very little joint patrol activity. Perhaps a patrol hike once during the week, but mostly it is merit badges done individually or in small groups.

 

An analogy for what I was looking for by using patrol cooking camps is what one sees with a theater group, music group, or sports team. These groups practice every day, and they practice together rather than separately. The members of these groups not only improve their individual skills, they also improve their cohesiveness as a group. They bond because they work together to achieve a common objective.

 

I do recognize that other scouters may have found another activity for Summer Camp to serve as a group objective for their patrols, lasting several hours each day for the week, require the participation of all members working together, and resulting in a tangible group outcome.

 

HICO, I congratulate you and your fellow troop members on your successful planning and going on campouts on our own. I agree with you that patrol camping without adults on the trip would be a great implementation of the patrol method. Unfortunately, I have not seen any patrol do so in this area.

 

Best Regards,

Venividi

[BrentAllen 10]

Yes, what Venividi said.

 

Also, all of our new Scouts select which patrol they would like to join at the end of April. They will have one camping trip in May before we head to Summer Camp in mid-June. The membership in all the patrols has changed, so each is a different group. Cooking in camp brings these new teams together much more quickly than they would if they ate in the dining hall.

 

I get SMs asking me all week how the cooking in camp is going, since we are usually the only ones doing it. They always say the same thing - "our Troop could never do that because it takes them too long to clean up." My response is, spend a week doing it, and the boys will get pretty efficient at it. On most monthly campouts, the boys don't have the early morning deadlines like they do at Summer Camp, so they can take their time. At Summer Camp, they have to learn how to be very efficient in their cooking and cleaning, and it takes the whole patrol team to make it happen. If one or two boys don't pull their weight, it really shows up.

 

In my book, if someone else is cooking and preparing your meals and handing them to you on a tray, you really aren't camping. All you are doing is sleeping in tents.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Stosh 3452]

Gee, all the troops at the Jamboree did the patrol-method approach to cooking. I didn't notice any problems...

 

So far I have not seen any measurable benefits of the dining halls other than convenience to the adult leadership who find it difficult to monitor and supervise the patrol-method process of cooking. Of course if one is doing the troop-method approach, this must be quite a nightmare. It is a lot easier to just dump the kids in the mess hall and let someone else worry about getting them fed.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Stosh