BadenP 93 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Mark, what you say is very true however I was referring the kind of basics that never become outdated, things like core scouting values and methods, aims, and purposes. If we try to appeal to every boy out there by ignoring some of these things, like the outdoor method for example that Mazzuca went on and on about with Hispanic youth, the scouting program then becomes diluted and lessened, and then we have to ask is it even still scouting or just another generic youth group. National really only looks at or cares about numbers and money to measure success and I would hate to see them sacrifice essential facets of the scouting program to achieve those goals.(This message has been edited by BadenP) Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I'm happy to wait till I see this change (If there is a change?) in black and white. A couple of thoughts. In the District I serve and have served for a little while! To the best of my knowledge no Patrol has ever gone away camping without an adult getting in the way. So the change isn't going to make much difference to them. I'm not an attorney and maybe not that bright? I do know what I think is right and what I think is wrong. I agree what any group of Lads wants to do "Outside of Scouting" is outside of Scouting and would hope that it remains that way! (I smoked my first cigarette with a group of other Lads from the Troop I was in when I was a Lad. I don't think anyone would go so far as to say that just because we were Scouts that this could in any way be seen as a Troop activity.) However for me I'm with SR540Beaver. While it's OK for a group to make their own plans. I would want to distance myself from them, if it was me wearing my BSA hat. If when OJ was younger he'd wanted to go hunting, with his pals. That would be one thing. But I'm not going to announce it at a Troop meeting. It does seem to me that the people who are willing to play by the rules will play this way. While the people who don't -Will not. Each of us decides what rules we will follow and which rules we are happy to let slide. Yes I'm guilty of allowing a group of BSA members who have been out canoing to go for a dip, without following all the stuff that is laid out in the BSA Safe Swim Defense Plan. (Mainly the stuff about the area.) I have also worn my WB beads with a Sea Scout uniform!! I think tour permits are a real waste of time and energy. But ... as my way of driving everyone in the Council Service Center nuts I fill the silly form out anyway. We can now do it on line, but I always fax it. I kinda think the SM who doesn't follow the rules and wants to allow a Patrol to camp is going to ignore the rule. Eamonn Link to post Share on other sites
bksct 10 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 THE BIGGER QUESTION IS WHY WOULD A GROUP OF SCOUTS KIDS GO CAMPING WITHOUT AN ADULT AGE 18 3 DEEP LEADERSHIP? MOST INSTANCES SCOUTS AT BEST CAN GET 1 TRAINED LEADER WHAT EVER THAT MEANS AND SOME ONE ELSE TO GO ALONG. HAVING GONE THRU SCOUTING AND STILL INVOLVED LET THE CHIPS FALL WERE THEY MAY WHAT ABOUT SCOUT CAMP AND NO SCOUT OFFICIAL OR CARE TAKER CAMP RANGER DON'T THE SPONCERS CONTROL THE TROOP AS THE GUDANCE REFLECTS? COUNCILS AND REGIONS AND NATIONAL PUT THEIR MONEY WHER THEIR MOUTH IS A GROUP OF YOUNG ADULTS SCOUTS DRIVE THEIR CARS FOUR HOURS TO CAMP OR NATIONAL PARKS. EXPLORERS COED (DATED TERMS PERHAPS) CAMPING WITHOUT ADULS NOT A PROBLEM DID THIS FOR YEARS WAT ABOUT A UNIT ALL THE SCOUTS ETC WERE 18 19 20 21 ETC 50 MILE BACKPACK TRIPS ETC. TAKING THE LEADERSHIP OF SCOUTS OUT OF THE HANDS OF SCOUTS THE PATROL METHOD YOU WILL KILL THE PROGRAM JUST LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LATE 60'S EARLY 70'S TAKING THE OUTING OUT OF SCOUTING ALMOST KILLED THE SCOUT PROGRAM INTILL IT WAS REINSTATED BY BILL HILLCOURT THE ULTIMATE "PATROL LEADER" Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 bksct, Why are you yelling? Why would they go camping without an adult? Because patrol camping is encouraged by the BSA. Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 bksct, Some friendly advice. Use your shift key and put a period att the end of your sentences if you want folks to read your posts. Link to post Share on other sites
eagle77 60 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 When I was a scout it was required that each Patrol do at least 4 outside activities other then the troops program. At least two of the four had to be overnight campouts. These were also in addition to the regular patrol meetings that each patrol had in addition to the regular troop meetings. All of these were designed to help the patrol and the patrol leaders to work on scouting skills and improve the patrol over all. Just like the practices that sports, bands, etc. do to work out the problems. From what I have seen in over 15 years as an adult leader and SM these are almost nonexistant today.At least in my part of the country (east coast. Heck just getting enough scouts from one patrol to do a regular campout is close to impossible. Plus the added problems of todays helicopter parents and leaders. I doubt if there are that many troops that even know about doing this let alone actively participate in it. Also there are new laws in different states that would make something like this hard if not impossible to do. This was another great team building time that has gone to the wayside. Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 "This was another great team building time that has gone to the wayside" While I tend to agree with what you say. I do however think it fell by the wayside because we allowed it too! Ea. Link to post Share on other sites
gwd-scouter 11 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Our guys had a great weekend backpacking. Saturday morning, our three experienced Scouts were dropped off to begin their 10 mile hike to their campsite. The adults and four less experienced Scouts took a different trail - about 3 miles - to their campsite. The two campsites were about 1/4 mile from each other. About 5:00 pm, the older guys arrived at their campsite and set up. Adults and other scouts joined them for a campfire Saturday night, then headed back to their own site. Sunday morning, older guys packed up, hiked down to the other campsite where everyone had a worship service. Then all hiked the 3 miles out to the parking lot and headed home. Fantastic weekend for all. Link to post Share on other sites
eagle77 60 Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 No argument from me on that. But I do believe part of the problem too is National has moved away from teaching this as a team building thing. I don't know of any adult training that really endorses this either, but I may be mistaken. I also blame society on this too. As said in other threads kids are just so over booked that even having a simple patrol meeting can be problem. It seems if there is no patch or rank requirement to complete then why do it? Being a better scout or person doesn't seem to have the same pull it did at one time.I have tried as SM to install this into the troop program but the PLC just does not want to touch this with any kind of enthusiasm. Link to post Share on other sites
HICO_Eagle 93 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Wow, this just adds to my frustration with National. I realize the lawyers are just trying to help preserve the program by avoiding lawsuits that could cripple or shut it down nationally (and I realize there are groups out there that would just love any pretext to do so). On the other hand, this is just more evidence that our society has lost its strength and stamina. Just 100 years ago, the age when Scouting started, boys the age of our Scouts were frequently men of their house, earning (or supplementing) their families' keep. We had plenty of unsupervised or relatively unsupervised outings (even at official functions like Camporees) and they helped us to grow -- at one point, an Eagle Scout matriculation rate of nearly 50% in a troop with barely a dozen scouts and sparse adult leadership. How do we bring these things forward to the CSE and company in Irving? Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 One of my WB patrol members was an elderly gentleman who grew up in the 30's and 40's with scouting. They went 2 years without a SM before national caught up to them and made them register an adult as SM. One of the boys' dad signed up, but never showed for any of the meetings or activities the boys planned. It would never happen in today's world. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
FScouter 24 Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Let's keep in mind that all we have is one story, from one council office, about a possible future change in policy. The best way to keep a program element is to use it and promote it to other units. When was the last time anyone's unit had a patrol hold an activity with no adult? Link to post Share on other sites
codger 35 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It seems to me that if National is going to prohibit unsupervised campouts across the board as is rumored, then they should at the same time change the Scout Law. If a boy is NEVER allowed out of the adult's sight, we sure don't need TRUSTWORTHY scouts. They will have nothing to be trusted with. By the way, I have been at various times in the same (and only) District as a Cub, a Boy Scout, a JASM, Committee Chairman (of three different units), Treasurer of a Pack, husband of a den leader and more since I was 8 years old. In otherwords, well known to several generations of scouts and Scouters. But sometimes I feel the BSA doesn't trust ME, with the intensity of the YPT mandates, etc. Soon we'll be told we must have video surveilance on all outings and meetings if this keeps up. Sheesh! Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 While I agree Patrol campouts should be kept, TRUSTWORTHY has a greater meaning than that, codger.(This message has been edited by evmori) Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Did anyone who went to the BSA National Meeting hear anything about this policy changing? Are we sure this is real? Does anyone have any proof that Natinal is contemplating doing away with All Boy Patrol Outings? Link to post Share on other sites
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