Stosh 3452 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 OGE, :^) I know the MC's can wear uniform shirts and even have MC patches. The CC and I discussed this whole thing at great length when he moved from SM to CC and I took over as SM. Because of the "shortage" of leaders it was decided to put ASM on their shirts to assure them that when requested they can be hands-on direct with the boys. It did draw concern about "ASM's" sitting in on BOR's, but as long as it wasn't a parent, we'd "overlook" that rule, too. (Sorry, GW, I know that's going to torque your shorts.) I have a few parents that are registered and I have no idea what they are down on paper as. They're there, they help when needed and work well with the boys when requested, and the boys like them. Being focused on the boys themselves, I rely heavily on my CC to provide the necessary adults when required. The boys needed a Popcorn Chair, she was there. The boys needed rides to camporee, they showed up ready to go. I look to my CC as my #1 wing-man and before I can even ask, he's there with what I need. It is that type of teamwork I'm trying to pass on to my boys. My SPL has an ASPL that works pretty much the same way as my CC. As a matter of fact, the ASPL is the former SPL and is the CC's son. Taking this back to the original thread, how does one fit a JASM into this whole mix? I would think that unless the unit is quite large, has more focused responsibilities for each postion both youth and adult, this vaguely defined position (JASM) would be difficult to functionally insert anywhere. In a large unit of 8-10+ patrols, having extra specific hands both adult (ASM) and youth (JASM) would be a blessing. In a smaller unit, the Eagle TG or ASPL could fill that role very easily on a temporary basis as needed. My boys are very focused on Servant Leadership where if there a functional need for something, fine, but wearing a patch just for the sake of wearing a patch or earn some POR requirement by showing up for a length of time doesn't cut it. That's not the SM rule, that's the rule the boys have come up with on their own. With only 20 boys, there's enough work going on that no one seems to be too worried about who's got what patch on their sleeve. My PL's take their turn on the roster doing KP just like any other member of their patrol. My boys are known by what they DO not what they ARE. The BSA literature defines what a JASM is, but not much on what they do. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Yah, I don't know why there's always this urge to say "You're not running a Boy Scout program" or whatnot, eh? Maybe it's envy - a desire to tear others down who appear successful. Can't see any value in it myself. Folks are running a Boy Scout Program if da BSA says they are running a Boy Scout Program by giving them a troop charter. Stosh, sounds great if dat's the way you like it and your CO is supportive. If at some point there's a lad who is growin' up a bit more, becomin' a bit more mature and wantin' to see himself as an adult, and yeh need to find something new to challenge him, there might be a JASM role that could be found, eh? I'd suggest things like: * What you do as SM. I am the first contact the SPL has with the adult corps of the unit. My job is to, when requested, assist the SPL to do his job or connect him up to the necessary adult to assist him in finding the specific area of expertise of the ASM. I shadow the SPL. Doesn't seem like that needs to be an adult role, eh? A senior youth, who attends all the adult meetings and begins to understand and be trusted in that side of da operation can do that job just fine, eh? * The non-committee function roles of your ASMs. No reason why a JASM can't handle advancement records, present boys with educational resources and the like, eh? No reason why a JASM or even the PLC itself can't handle fundraisin'. * Nothin' to stop a competent youth from teaching a MB, eh? It's done all the time at summer camps across the nation. Just need a regular adult to sign off. * Leadin' revisions of your program. Starting up new projects. Debriefing the PLC and leading the development of new program pieces. For example, yeh don't mention service in your list of things adults do - perhaps a JASM to help develop community contacts for service work, and figurin' out how service learning opportunities tie in with MBs and promote that, eh? All kinds of possibilities. But I'd start with takin' a look at what you do as SM. Judgin' by your descriptions, this feels like a unit where things quietly revolve around your vision and actions. A lad who is growin' up is ready to take on that piece too, eh? Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
sheldonsmom 10 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Other side of the coin. I have a 17 year old Eagle Scout who is only allowed to be a JASM because of his rank. They will not let him run for SPL or ASPL. Because he has already earned Eagle, he does not "NEED" the POR and must let the younger boys fill the positions. BTW, the next oldest boy in the troop is 14. Rather frustrating for an Eagle, to be relegated to the back burner. He is neither an adult or a boy in this troop. If we hadn't just moved to this troop (after he made Eagle), we would probably look for a different troop. I feel they are wasting a valuable resource. Link to post Share on other sites
Buffalo Skipper 13 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Sheldonsmom, I agree with you. I would love to have someone like that as an Instructor or Troop Guide. If he wants to to be that involved, then get him involved! This is one of those instances when a Venturing Crew may be a good fit. It will allow him to continue to expand his horizons, earn other recognitions, and really share his knowledge with others. But, of course, I cannot speak for what programs are available in your area. Link to post Share on other sites
sheldonsmom 10 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 He is serving as a Den Chief, but really is not mixing with the troop because he is neither fish nor fowl. In a time when leaders complain that older boys won't stay active, why would you push out an older boy who wants to help? Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Because sometimes you need to watch what you wish for, cause you might just get it Link to post Share on other sites
Gold Winger 9 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 " They will not let him run for SPL or ASPL. Because he has already earned Eagle, he does not "NEED" the POR and must let the younger boys fill the positions." That's as wrong as forcing elections to 'give every boy a chance to lead' or 'make room for someone who needs the position.' Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 PORs are inherently evil. They were invented after the retirement of William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt (the father of the American Patrol Method) and used to forever destroy the BSA's status as most popular youth organization in the United States by replacing Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training with business manager work-group theory. Before PORs, if your son was a talented Patrol Leader he would remain in that role as long as he was the Patrol's best leader. The idea was to have a mature Patrol Leader take his Patrol out for Patrol hikes to work on Advancement and having fun, all without adult supervision. The BSA now suggests that Troops hold elections every six months. The "modern" idea is dumb Patrol activities down to adult-supervised Cub camping so everyone has a chance to learn business work-group theory. If you have only been with the Troop for a short time, why not find a better one? Kudu Link to post Share on other sites
Gold Winger 9 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 What do you mean "before PORs"? They used to be called "warrant officers" but they've existed for aeons. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I kinda have to agree with sheldonsmom and kudu. There's got to be something seriously wrong with a SM running the show to this extent. Taking the Eagle out of the mix is about as smart as the business that takes their top salesmen out of the market and give them a desk job as soon as they make the company a $1,000,000. Dah? Wake up here. This is why the JASM leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. It's the kiss of death that the brightest and best get saddled with. Even if the SM uses the modern dynamics proposed by BSA currently, taking the boy out of the troop functionality is a total waste of what that SM did to assist that boy through the ranks to Eagle in the first place. Obviously this poor scout is never going to get a fair shake with this troop. Maybe he needs to act on his leadership skills and make a command decision concerning his scout career. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
sheldonsmom 10 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Maybe you are right and we should find another troop, but he does like the boys. He has had enough upheaval the last year and I just hate to suggest any more. I will talk to him and see what he wants to do. It is his decision ultimately. He is the leader, I will ask where he wants to lead. Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Gold Winger writes: 'What do you mean "before PORs"?' The term "Position of Responsibility" was invented to refer to the practice of requiring a Scout to hold a specific office for a specific length of time to get credit for Advancement after First Class. Before then a Scout volunteered for service because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO and he was the right guy to do it, just like YOU volunteer for service as an adult, Gold Winger. When Scouting was a POPULAR program with teenagers, it took six months to train a good Patrol Leader how to hold Patrol Meetings and take his Patrol on unsupervised hikes and overnights. This six-month training investment made sense because a Patrol Leader remained Patrol Leader for as long as he was the best Scout for the job. What a radical idea, huh? Now the BSA encourages elections every six months so that with a rapid turn-over every "POR" can be trained with the same business manager work-group theory. As a result Patrols do not go on unsupervised Patrol Hikes any more, let alone Patrol overnights! Instead they come back from NYLT with notebooks full of "team-building exercises." You are or were a coach or umpire of some kind weren't you? How quickly would ANY sport turn into Cub Scouts if you held elections after every game so that every boy had a chance to be pitcher, quarterback, etc. so that you could teach EVERY position on the team the SAME business manager work-group theory hyped as "leadership"? Forget specialized training, instead you lead lame "team-building exercises" like "trust falls" and "Game of Life." Dumbing down Patrols so that you can keep your teenage Patrol Leaders barefoot and stupid, camped in the corner of a small campsite is NO different than forcing teenagers to play T-Ball because you want to teach business manager work-group theory rather than how to play ball. Kudu Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Totally agree, Kudu. I find that functional officers can actually lead the troop without adult interference. If they aren't trained, and have no experience, then the adults have to mentor, guide, direct, and do the leadership for them or nothing would get done. Also: sheldonsmom, your son may wish to do the DC job. He can still tap into the big outings of the troop, but spend is productive time working with a handful of kids that will totally thrive on having an Eagle scout for a DC. Maybe the DL will give him more respect for his accomplishments than the current SM. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
jtswestark 11 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 We use JASM in the same manner as SR540, they are winding things down. I want to treat them with the respect theyve earned and the special treatment is warranted. In my troop, its tough to put a 16 or 17 year old nearly Eagle or Eagle back into a patrol with 11 and 12 year olds and have him stay interested and contribute very long. It can also undermind the development of a new or younger PL. If they want to go into a patrol, cool, let them. But most arent all that interested. They want to be with their buddies that are in troop leadership and sometimes with adults. So we welcome them in the leadership patrol, we cook for them sometimes and let them bask in the comfort that theyve earned. I am proud that many of my guys are active in the OA Lodge, work on camp staff, and do more with high adventure. They may only come to a troop campout here and there, while juggling all the other elder teen activities they do with sports, girls, jobs, plays, college entrance exams, visitations, etc I dont want to force the older guys away, I dont want them to make a choice because most often Scouts will loose. In fact I keep asking them to come back and go out of my way to welcome them when they do. Whatever way they feel comfortable giving back to the troop is fine with me. JASM is a reward for all theyve earned and lets them ride out their youth in Scouting on their terms, simple as that. Jack Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 >> Dah? Wake up here. This is why the JASM leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. It's the kiss of death that the brightest and best get saddled with. Link to post Share on other sites
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