Whither the Patrol Method?

[Beavah 205]

Oh, I dunno, BA. He and jblake playin' tag team with SR540 and BobWhite is kind of entertaining! Even makes for some elements of a good discussion.

 

I agree with yeh, though. I think the problem is more often what jblake describes in terms of SM attitudes. WB is nice and all, but it's only an experience of a few days. Boy Scout specific is even shorter, eh? Even if WB and Basic trainin' were awful, they wouldn't have da effect Kudu claims. And I don't really think they're awful.

 

I do agree with him that teachin' "leadership styles" and all that drivel to kids is boring, and too abstract for a young adolescent male brain. Being focused and practical works much better, especially if the SM has in mind that the patrol is goin' to go camping without any adults.

 

Beavah

 

[hot_foot_eagle 13]

"Being an effective leader has very little to do with being an effective patrol leader. Once the boy turns 18, there's not going to be much demand for one's patrol leader skills. "

 

 

Horse hockey.

 

The skills of an effective patrol leader (in a boy-led troop)are exactly the skills needed to be anything from an infantry platoon leader to a project team leader. What's lacking for most youth are the management skills required by the corporate world.

 

Anyone can earn an MBA these days. It's the leadership skills that make all the difference.

 

 

[Ditro 10]

Like other people said, it not Wood Badge (or any one thing) that causes a lack of understanding in the patrol method. Take a look at the Scoutmaster's handbook and you'll find very limited info on the patrol method. In the 1970's version, there are pages and pages devoted to planning, competition, and the logic behind patrols.

 

Not everybody takes Wood badge, but every SM and ASM should be able to know and understand the nature of the patrol method.

 

Ditro(This message has been edited by ditro)(This message has been edited by ditro)

[ozemu 10]

I haven't been a Patrol Leader for a very long time but I use the leadership skills that I learned and used every day.

 

Not that the Patrol Method is the only way to learn this but by heck it works well and is pretty simple.

 

Is there some confusion in BSA about the Patrol Method (PL, APL and a few Scouts) and the Troop Method (SPL, ASPL, Scribe, CoH, Troop Council etc)? Certainly is over here.

[Bob White 20]

First, let's remember that Leadership Development Method and the Patrol Method are two separate but related methods used as tools to achieve the aims of scouting.

 

The leadership skills a scout learns are derived from the adult leadership's use of the Leadership Development Method. Those skills can be easily practiced and applied when a scout leader employs the Patrol Method of operation within the unit.

 

I would strongly disagree with Beavah that the leadership skills a scout learns cannot be applied outside of scouting. In fact I think horse hockey would be putting it mildly.

 

Anyone who feels that what they are teaching scouts will become useless the moment the youth leaves scouts is either teaching the wrong thing, or teaching it wrong, or perhaps not teaching anything at all.

 

The fundamentals of the Patrol Method are quite simple. Small groups of scouts of similar ages and interest, under the leadership of a member of their group that they select, gather to learn and practice the skills and values of scouting.

 

The fundementals of developing leadership are just as simple. The elected or selected youth leaders under the coaching and counseling of adults learn the elements of servant leadership and how to lead small groups to get a job done while maintaining the structure of the group. They practice these skills while participating in patrol and troop activities.

 

That is pretty darn simply to understand. Doing it can be very simple as well, or it can be very difficult. Like with any other activity different people come to scouting with different skill sets. Some will understand these methods and be able to function effectively with very little assistance. Some will require a little training and a little practice. Some a lot of training and a lot of practice. Others will never get. It depends on the individual NOT the program.

 

This is why charter organizations need to select and recruit the right people for the job. Wanting to be a scout leader, or being willing to be a scout leader, is not enough. Like any other job you need to select someone capable of doing the work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad 2777]

>>I would strongly disagree with Beavah that the leadership skills a scout learns cannot be applied outside of scouting. In fact I think horse hockey would be putting it mildly.

[Bob White 20]

The training given the scout at NYLT (the replacement of JLT) is done in variety of ways including practical application.

 

Yes, scouts learn a lot by observing but what some leaders fail to understand is that the scouts are not just watching the older junior leaders, they are primarily watching how the adults lead. This is why in scouting the most important training is done through coaching and mentoring, It's a subtle series of observation followed by a pat on the back. Sometimes it's a nudge forward and sometimes its a small nudge to the side to get them back on track.

 

But by and large how you treat junior leaders will determine how they treat those they lead.

 

Leadership development is not taught by the BSA at any level as being "take this class and go lead". The group instruction teaches general concepts. The activities of the troop, patrol, team, or crew, provide the application and practice opportunity. The observations and evaluations by the adult leader resuting in coaching and mentoring is the bulk of instruction.

 

Leadership development is constant and neverending. And it is your leadership ability and action as the adult that will have the greatest affect on the scout.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Beavah 205]

I would strongly disagree with Beavah that the leadership skills a scout learns cannot be applied outside of scouting. In fact I think horse hockey would be putting it mildly.

 

Yah, that's fine, eh? I think it's horse hockey too! Mostly because I never said anything even vaguely like that.

 

I'm in complete agreement that one of the fine things a successful scout unit will give to a lad is the ability to both lead and follow (and communicate/negotiate which!) in a variety of circumstances.

 

Da question is how is that outcome achieved within Scouting? Does it happen because we sat down with lads at TLT and taught them from a book about directive, delegating, etc. styles? Because we discussed with them leadership theory?

 

NO!

 

The outcome is achieved because Patrol Method and Youth Leadership when done well in a troop allows for years and years of observing, practicing, coaching, and reflecting on real, live leadership and followership in a setting which makes success or failure easy to recognize. That's where da real work of leadership development in Scouting takes place. The leadership theory bookwork and instruction contributes barely an iota.

 

Kudu thinks da bookwork detracts because it distracts less experienced adult leaders from the more important stuff. It's an interestin' argument. I'm not sure whether I agree or not, but I do agree that it's possible, eh? Certainly the current TLT is an example of how that might happen - just go over leadership styles and a job description in a class and the SM is done! Yah, sure, an experienced scouter is gonna add a lot to that, eh? But I think our materials should be geared more toward practical advice for novice scouters than stuff only experienced scouters will know how to implement well.

 

I guess I do agree with Kudu that da leadership theory stuff is irrelevant. Yeh can dispose of it and not affect outcomes at all (and perhaps reduce boredom). BSA was successful at developin' leaders long before that stuff got inserted.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White 20]

"I never said anything even vaguely like that"

Sure you did beavuh, You wrote "Being an effective leader has very little to do with being an effective patrol leader. Once the boy turns 18, there's not going to be much demand for one's patrol leader skills. "

 

That is more than just "vaguely like that". Now that may not be waht you meant, but it is surely what you wrote.

 

The leadership training in the past was effective at the time because it taught the best information available at that time. It wasn't that long ago that the existence of atoms was just a theory and so that is what was taught at the time. Then times changed and the atom was split so the instruction changed.

 

Wood shaft golf clubs were used by everyone because at the time that was the best technology there was. But times changed and I doubt anyone will argue that todays technology gives the golfer a greater advanctage than the old one shafts.

 

There are countless examples of that, and the area of leadership is no different. The skills taught today are different than 40 years ago because we no longer live 40 years ago. We develop and learn and things change.

 

To say that TLT does not give a scout all the skills they need is to say that elementary school doesn't give you all the skills you need.

Of course it doesn't it was never meant to, it is a beginning not an end.

 

The BSA is does not have the ultimate responsibility to teach leadership in the unit you serve, that's the scoutmaster's job. The BSA provides resources, and they provide lots of them. It is up to the local unit leader to get the job done.

[Beavah 205]

???

 

Yah, BW, it really doesn't take much effort to scroll back through da thread and recognize that quote came not from me, but from jblake, eh? Especially since I only had one short post on da entire thread! Maybe Kudu's right, we should be spendin' more time on things like Kim's Game to teach observation skills.

 

I understand where you're comin' from on da rest of it, but I think it's the wrong approach. It's fine to say "Yah, TLT and our other materials aren't near enough, it's up to the Scoutmaster." But our job as the BSA is to provide materials and trainin' to assist the unit. If our materials aren't enough to lead a novice SM to success, if our trainin' ain't enough to teach da practical side of doing patrol method and youth leadership, then to my mind that's our fault, not the Scoutmaster's. Kudu's point that Basic never really mentions patrol method at all is a telling one, eh?

 

It's too easy to blame da SM for everything "wrong," especially when most SM's are fairly new to da job, eh?

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[BrentAllen 10]

Beavah,

For the record, my computer shows the lined quoted was posted on Sunday, 6/1/2008: 3:32:51 PM by jblake. Can't say what is showing up on other people's monitors, but I thought it would be the same. Do I win the game? :-) Maybe it is just confusing since jblake says he is a Beaver?

[Beavah 205]

Maybe it is just confusing since jblake says he is a Beaver?

 

Yah, that must be it, eh!

 

All of us dam Beavers are trouble-makers! We all have da same toothy grin, too. But that jblake character, he doesn't have da same charmin' northern accent, eh?

 

B

 

 

 

 

[Spiney Norman 10]

Our troop just finished this year's TLT course. Another ASM and I put the course together and run it for 8 weeks. We do use the TLT booklet, I hesitate to call it anything else. I certainly wouldn't call a scout equipped to be a PL it that was all we used. We also use the old BSA course from the early 90's, the one with the VHS tape, along with lotsa' stuff from Kudu's website (THANKS) and another Canadish Scout book our SM picked up ( the title escapes me and I try and update it later). Some of it is boring and some of it is fun, but I stress to the boys that this is only a beginning. If they want to be an effective leader they need to practice what they have learned and be aware of their actions and behavior.

 

Is it Woodbadge? Is it NYLT? I don't much care. Neither one of those courses is a panacea anyway. The whole point here is to help these scouts to become good citizens, effective leaders and well rounded adults. I don't think any one syllabus can do that.(This message has been edited by spiney norman)

[Herms 10]

Kudu, it's too bad that more councils don't have a Brownsea 22 course for younger boys anymore. We have one here in the Great Southwest council and it is outstanding for getting a first or second year scout off on the right foot in understanding the Patrol Method as that is all it is!! I watched my boy grow more in that one week than at any other time in his life (that was 4 years ago). He is currently off at NYLT this week and it will be interesting to see what he has learned this week!

 

It's sad to see some of these posts talking about the SM and adults doing the planning and seting the course of the Troop. If your troop learns how and uses the Patrol Method it is a blast to sit back and watch the boys plan, carry out activities and the talk afterword...!

 

 

[Bob White 20]

My apologies to Beavah for misattributing that quote to him. It was in fact Jblake who said it, and I apologize for the error.

 

On the other hand Beavah, no one is blaming the scoutmaster. Stateing who has responsibility for facilitating the program is not the same as blaming someone. Blaming suggests that they did somthing wrong and you are assigning fault. Saying that the Scoutmaster is responsibile for training development is simpling identifying the primary role of the scoutmaster. There is no blame involved.

 

Whether the SM does a good job or a bad one he or she is still the person responsible for the task.

 

And yes Basic training does cover the Patrol Method. In fact New Leader Essentials discussess the Patrol Method.

 

The are numerous resources available to now or experienced Scout leadrs to help them understand and utilize the Methods of each program, the thing that doesn't seem to be sinking in with some folks is that it will usually take more than one resources to understnd the big picture and it can take a lot of practice to get good at it, depending on what skills your already have or how quickly you learn them.