Officer overload, aka too many Chiefs

[Stosh 3452]

What often baffles me is the need for every troop to overload their group with chiefs. As pointed out, 12 boys, 2 patrols, 2 PL's who double up as SPL and TG??????? Why double up? SPL and TG's are not supposed to be part of the patrols? Just because the book says one has to have a SPL doesn't mean one really does!

 

I have at the present time 3 patrols of 7 boys each and they are mostly new scouts. So I have ONE TG. He's the only troop level officer I have and he's doing a fine job. When we show up at a camporee, the PLC (3 PL's) decide who's going to be SPL and has to go to the SPL meeting. If the PLC (3 PL's) needs to get together, they all sit down and jaw-jack out their situation and 5 minutes later, problem solved.

 

So often I see elaborate officer structure to the point where everyone has a POR badge and no one's doing anything except stepping all over everyone else's toes.

 

I don't see a need for a functioning SPL until one has 4-5 patrols. Otherwise these boys end up figure-head officers with no responsibilities.

 

If one has functioning PL's there is very little need for many troop officers. Eventually when we get big enough, we'll add on a QM, and maybe a scribe to help with advancment records, etc. That will leave 5 PL's, a TG, a QM, Scribe, 8 boys total, now it's time to have a SPL coordinate the troop officers. Maybe with another 5-6 patrols, a few instructors, etc. one could add on an ASPL to functionally assist him.

 

For the life of me I have never seen how non-functioning troop officers are actually taught leadership when they basically don't do anything to actually accomplish anything. For the most part I find these positions more disruptive than actually helpful when they try to dominate and run a show they aren't supposed to be running, i.e. SPL's trying to run patrols when the PL's supposed to be doing that. Someone gets left out in the cold somewhere and leadership training takes a backseat to actual reality. Actual leadership can only occur when the officer has a functioning responsibility, otherwise, they are gaining advancement POR credit for doing nothing.

 

Stosh

[jmwalston 11]

One of the troops I work with has the same problem. Only a dozen boys divided into 2 patrols. They have been struggling with Patrol Leaders who do not know how to run patrols, despite going through training. There is no SPL or ASPL, but they have a Scribe, Quartermaster, and Historian. I think the idea has been to get the scouts involved in learning the responsibility of a position, but without direct leadership roles other than PL or APL. I haven't seen much to show for it, except surprisingly enough, for the Historian. The SM wanted to elect SPL right after their summer camping, though I recommended he wait and see how the boys did in summer camp. He reluctantly agreed and now admits it was the right choice. The troop is now a year old and still doesn't have a SPL or ASPL, but they are slowingly learning. I don't agree with the plethora of Troop POR now used, as I think that with just 2 patrols, the scouts can keep up with dues fairly easily. And they have no troop equipment, so why a Quartermaster?

[gwd-scouter 11]

Since this was spun from my post, I'll try to answer jblake. Since we were so small, we only had one patrol. We had an SPL, although he functioned as a PL but the guys liked the title better. We did have a Troop Guide to help out the new guys that joined most recently. Since we've now formed two patrols, the SPL and Troop Guide are now PLs and we don't actually have an SPL or Troop Guide. So, no, they are not doubling up as SPL and TG.

 

I understand your comment about too many chiefs and I also agree that sometimes Troops fill all kinds of PORs because boys "need" a position, not because the Troop has a real need for someone in a position. In fact, we moved away from that several years ago and have guys in minimal PORs. I most certainly agree that if you have the majority of your Scouts with a patch on their sleeve, a title with no real responsibility, that can lead to a mess.

[hotdesk 10]

We have two experienced patrols, a new scout patrol, and a Older Scout Patrol. The average patrol size is 7 scouts. Each of these patrols as a Patrol Leader.

 

On the troop level we have:

 

1) Senior Patrol Leader: Chairs the monthly Patrol Leader's Council meeting, chairs each troop meeting (conducts openings, ensures that skills are ready to be taught, works with other troop leaders in completing their job assignments, etc.), serves as emcee for our quarterly Court of Honor, serves as a liasion between the adult leaders and scouts, and takes the lead in planning and coordinating the program for each campout.

 

2) Assistant Senior Patrol Leader: steps in for the SPL during their absences, helps to coordinate each troop meeting, supervises and supports the Quartermaster, Scribe, and Librarian, and helps to plan the program for each campout

 

3) Troop Guide: works with the new scouts and runs the First Class in First Year Advancement program

 

4) Quartermaster: maintains equipment, checks equipment in and out, follows up on returns, organizes the cleaning for the troop trailer, and maintains an inventory count

 

5) Scribe: records attendance for all troop functions, records and emails minutes for the monthly PLC Meeting, and encourages advancement among scouts

 

6) Librarian: maintains MB Books, prepares MB Books for Summer Camp and annual MBOD, checks books in and out, follow up on returns, and recommends purchases to the Troop Advancement Coordinator

 

7) Jr. Assistant Scoutmaster: works on assignments delegated by the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster

 

I'm not sure if by your definition this would be overload or not. In our troop it is not and all these scouts have enough varity in their position that it is not.

[Bob White 20]

If you coached a football team how many of the players would be given a position to play and taught how to play it?

 

If you directed a band how many would have a position to play and be taught how to play it. If you directed a choir, how many of the singers have specific parts to sing and be taught how to sing it?

 

If you were the chairman of committee how many people on the committee would have specific responsibilities to take care of, and then taught how to do it?

 

If you ran a business, how many of the employees would have a specific job to be responsible for and taught how to do it?

 

If you want people to have a purpose for being part of group and a reason for showing up then they need to fell needed and important to the group, so in scouting we give them each specific positions of responsibility and then teach them how to do it.

 

The Leadership Development Method of the BSA

 

You are not making every scout a chief, you are giving every scout a position of responsibility because on a team everyone plays a position. It makes each scout responsible for the success of their patrol or troop, and it gives each scout the opportunity to grow and develop.

 

 

 

 

 

[ASM59 10]

Good Day,

 

HotDesk - I like your break down of the POR's. It really does show that if properly assigned and overseen, these positions, as Bob White points out, do not overlap and each boy can have an important part of helping to run the Troop.

 

Of course, if you do not have a Troop trailer or equipment, it would not make sense to have a QM, but you could have a Librarian to begin compiling a list of MB books needed for Summer Camp even if you don't have any books currently. And so on for the other positions.

 

I have worked with Troop size from 10 Scouts to 27 Scouts. We have always had as many POR's as make sense, and have never gone without a dedicated SPL and ASPL. Depending on the Scout filling these top positions, the SM or ASM's may need to do a lot of follow-up to make sure they are doing OK in their position. For example, are they delegating the jobs to whom they should, are they having problems getting those Scouts to actually do what needs to be done, and so forth.

 

I never saw the need for a Troop Historian, but I had a Scout ask for the position and I reluctantly let him do it. He collected pictures from anyone who took a camera on outings, scanned them into his computer, and generated CD's for each outing that was turned into the adults. He also made collages of each outing on posterboard to be displayed at our Red & Green and other COH's. He really poured himself into the job and we were all very pleased that he took on the responsibility (by the way he was 12 years old).

 

Properly overseen by the SPL, ASPL, adult leaders, these POR's can work even in smaller Troop sizes. I've never had a problem with "too many chiefs"...

 

ASM59

[Eagledad 2777]

>>I don't see a need for a functioning SPL until one has 4-5 patrols. Otherwise these boys end up figure-head officers with no responsibilities.

[Stosh 3452]

I would start out with an evaluation of what the duties needing to be done are. Once these are identified one can add officers in areas where those needs are met.

 

If it is identified that there is a need for coordination between patrols, then it is a good time to add an SPL. If there are two PL's there is no need for coordination because the two PL's sit down and hash out any interpatrol concerns. 3 PL's, yep, still workable, but by the time one gets to 4-5 PL's then it takes a lot more than just sitting down and working it out. It's time to add the SPL to coordinate these discussions.

 

It would possibly occur earlier if the troop officer corps grew quickly in the troop. We need a QM! Ok, scout steps out of any patrol role and takes on the troop QM ressponsibilitites. Scribe? yep, if the paperwork is getting out of hand, add him in too. Boy wants to do DC work, go for it. And as these boys drop out of the patrols to work at the troop level, they form up a "virtual" patrol of troop officers that is headed up by the SPL. So in fact one could add a SPL before one gets to the 4-5 patrol level.

 

In my troop I will have these troop officers drop out of the patrols so as to not "interfere" with the PL's operation of the patrol, and these troop officers shouldn't have any patrol loyalties in that they are serving the troop now, not just their patrol. It avoids any conflict of interest issues.

 

BP seemed to think that any officer who is worth his salt can handle responsibility for about 8 boys. This would apply to the SPL as well. Let's assume he has a 1) QM, 2) Scribe, 3) TG, 4-8) PL's. This gives him his 8 people. But then someone wants to be ad DC, another Historian, and another Chaplain's aid. Now's the time to add an ASPL to assist in the increased size of the troop corps and actually might even camp as a second virtual patrol. That keeps the patrol method group size around 8 people and doesn't get too unwieldly. Add to that eventually there are now 8 patrols so the SPL has 8 PL's to support. The ASPL takes the rest of the troop officer corps, but there are more than 8 now to handle the huge troop, - add another ASPL. Ideally one is looking to maximize the leadership responsiblities and minimize the scope of each officer. If the troop is huge, why not 2 scribes? one scribe for half the patrols? They aren't conflicting with each other, nor are they duplicating efforts.

 

The troop officer corps should be dynamic in that if the cycle of membership drops and the responsibilities for corps officers drop off, they can drop back into the patrols. Not much need to have them hanging around as figureheads with no job to do.

 

Until a job becomes truly a fulltime posistion, there is no need for two people doing half-time POR's Surely in a small troop the Scribe could probably handle the Scribe, Historian and Librarian positions at the same time. Once that gets too much to handle, add another boy and divvy up the responsibilties.

 

Right now my TG (the only troop officer) is marked TG because all three of our patrols are basically NSP's. He is also doing the Scribe position keeping track of the paperwork basically for advancment, attendence, etc. He is capable to stepping into the SPL position at camporees if the PL's are busy with their boys. As the PL's train the new boys, they will be able to take on troop level support positions as well. At this point there isn't much need for that but within a year that will become a strong possibility.

 

All this can only be done AFTER the amount and areas of responsibility are identified. There is nothing wrong with the boys trying out these POR positions to see if they like them without having to sew on the patch and as they stumble around think they are actually fulfilling the responsibilities. Or get the patch given to them and then have them sit around wondering what it is they are supposed to be doing, but earning rank anyway.

 

We do this with the adults, I need a Popcorn Chair, I need someone to head up summer camp, I need someone to organize some fundraisers, etc. etc. Nothing wrong with doing the same in the troop, but this is organized and implemented by the officer corps rather than the adults.

 

Stosh

 

[Kudu 186]

The best test of any Scouting theory is to experiment with Baden-Powell's advice to separate the Patrols by at least 300 feet.

 

It's not against the law, you know!

 

If in a small Troop with only two Patrols you see the SPL and ASPL running back and forth between the Patrols to tell them what to do, then their talent would more effectively be used as Patrol Leaders.

 

Kudu

 

[hotdesk 10]

1) It seems to me that if you have two or three patrols that are going to be drawn together to solve a problem that one of the Patrol Leaders are going to become the "leader" of the Patrol Leaders to help pull them together and lead the discussion. At this point you already have a ad hoc Senior Patrol Leader.

 

In our troop we have monthly Patrol Leader's Council Meetings. Here the boy leadership of the troop will decide on program for the meetings and outings for the month, discuss any discipline problems, do some future planning, and do some leadership training. Whose responsible for establising and emailing the agenda? The Senior Patrol Leader! Whose responsible for leading the discussion and keeping decorum? The Senior Patrol Leader! Whose responsible for following up and making sure that scouts complete any assigned tasks? The Senior Patrol Leader!

 

In our troop we go camping. This weekend we're going to Springfield. The boys should have the responsiblity and priveledge to plan this outing themselves. Whose going to lead the discussion? The Senior Patrol Leader! Whose going to record notes? The Scribe! Whose going to make sure that the equipment is ready to go? The Quartermaster.

 

We also like to have a list of scouts that attended any troop activitiy or service project to keep an accurate list for number of nights camped and service hours completed. We like to know who worked which fundraisers so that accounts can be properly debited. Who creates these lists? The Scribe. Who collects money for the activity fees? The Scribe!

 

At no point is the Scoutmaster, any Assistant Scoutmasters, Advancement Coordinator, Equipment Coordinator, etc going to do any of this for the scouts. This is boy-led. The adults are present to help provide guidance and prevent problems that are going to be against BSA Guidelines.

 

It also seems to me that some are looking to add these positions as "paperwork gets out of hand". Whose doing the paperwork in these troops? If it's the Advancement Coordinator then why are adults doing something that a boy can do. Provide each boy a source for gaining leadership experience.

 

2)Jblack47 you mention in your first post that you have seen troops where everyone has a leadership position. You mentioned that the problem is that very few of them seem to actually complete their positions. This is the fault of the adult leadership. Very often if scouts are not completing their delegated leadership positions it is because we are doing it for them or we don't actually expect them to do it.

 

The Historian keeps photo albums and perhaps can write an article about each campout for the newsletter, the Scribe helps record advancement information, minutes of the PLC, and attendance, the Quartermaster maintains equipment and checks it in and out, and so on. If these scouts are not doing their position then why? Is it because the Committee Officers assigned to similar positions are not working as advisors, but actually do the job themselves? Is it because no one has explained the leadership position to the scout and trained them in their position? Is it because we don't have any real expectations for these scouts? If the answer to any of these questions is yes then it comes down to the adult leadership to change.

 

3)Remember that one of our responsiblites is to give boys a chance to lead and learn from their mistakes.

 

4) The troop level positions mentioned perviously (Scribe, Quartermaster, Librarian, etc.) are going to remain members of their original patrols. The Scoutmaster Handbook only mentions that the Senior Patrol Leader and Assistant Senior Patrol Leader(s) are leaving their original patrols.

[Stosh 3452]

Hmmm, why is it that the patrol with the QM always gets the best tents? And why is the QM over at the trailer helping everone else and his patrol members get stuck with all the patrol work?

 

How come the patrol with the Historian are the one's in the camporee pictures?

 

The Scribes patrol always has their advancment records maintained but the other patrols have holes in the reporting. If every patrol needs a scribe, why do they need a "troop" scribe? Why can't the "patrol" scribe get POR credit and the "troop" scribe who doesn't do anymore than the rest get POR credit?

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

Conflict of interest does a lot to detract from the POR responsibilities.

 

I just find it better in my troop to pull these people out of any patrol responsibilities and give them troop responsibilities. They'll migrate together to form a grouping of their own and function pretty much like a patrol of their own, but with no conflict of interest.

 

If Kudu is right, wouldn't everyone be totally lost at a campout as to not only where IS the QM but what patrol is he in? What patrol has the Scribe and where are they located?

 

Nope, just solves a lot of problems if the troop officers mess up together. They are ALL in the same place and a lot easier to find and aren't too busy with his own patrol respsonsibility to help out the other patrols.

 

Stosh

[hotdesk 10]

We haven't had these problems in our troop. All of our equipment is maintained exactly the same. The tents are all of the same age (a year or two apart). As we get new tents they are assigned to a patrol. It doesn't matter who the QM is and what they patrol they are in the tents are all the same.

 

The patrol boxes are all of the same quality also. The Patrol Leader is responsible for making sure that all items are there and that any items that need to be replaced are reported to the Troop Quartermaster.

 

In our troop we unload all the equipment at the same time. The patrol gear (enough tents, patrol boxes, pots and pans, dish washing gear, etc.) first and then personal equipment second. The only thing that stays in the trailer is the patrol coolers. The Patrol Leaders know that they can get these on their own. The Quartermaster supervises the unloading of the troop equipment and personal equipment. He also supervises the reloading of the trailer. So basically the Quartermaster only needs to be at the trailer at the beginning of the campout and at the end of the campout.

 

If the Scribe is not keeping the entire troop's advancement records complete then it falls to the Advancement Coordinator to hold the Scribe accountable. It comes to the Advancement Coordinator to sit down with the Scribe and explain to them what needs to happen and how to make it happen. If the Scribe doesn't complete what the troop expects him to complete then he isn't fulfilling the responsiblities of his position.

 

Maybe another thing is that we need to stop expecting scouts to mess up. The scouts will meet the minimum expectations that we set for them. If we don't expect them to do well they won't. If we hold them accountable and we expect them to do well they usually will.

[Kudu 186]

jblake47 writes:

 

If Kudu is right, wouldn't everyone be totally lost at a campout as to not only where IS the QM but what patrol is he in? What patrol has the Scribe and where are they located?

 

Are you suggesting a Troop keep its Patrols close together in case somebody needs to find the Scribe in a clerical emergency?

 

When the Patrols are separated, a good Patrol Quartermaster is as important to a Patrol's success as a good Patrol Leader and about as difficult to find. Most of their work is done before the campout so a Patrol needs a detail person who doesn't mind missing out on whatever else is happening during the meeting before each campout. All things considered, all dependable Patrol Quartermasters should have the rank and privileges of Troop Quartermaster including the Patch and POR credit.

 

Gifted Quartermasters usually become Patrol Leaders when they are finally old enough to lead others without depending on the authority of adults.

 

Kudu

 

[Stosh 3452]

Are you suggesting a Troop keep its Patrols close together in case somebody needs to find the Scribe in a clerical emergency?

 

Nope! :^) I was only suggesting that if all the patrols are scattered all about, if one has 5-6 patrols, it would take all afternoon to find the QM who has the trailer keys to replace a broken tent pole. If the troop officers all "patroled" together in one spot the search would be far easier. Same for the adult cadre, if they hung together (out of the way of the boys) if there was need to contact them, the boys would know where to start looking. Patrol A doesn't need to know where Patrol C is, but if the QM was with the troop officer patrol/group instead of Patrol G, the logistics and effectiveness seems to be far more efficient. I would highly doubt if there ever would be a Scribe crisis, but I can envision a QM, SPL, or even a Chaplain Aide concern that shouldn't involve a massive manhunt. My suspicion would dictate to me that in a situation like that the boys would turn to the congregated adults and seek their assistance before looking for troop officers who are scattered about.

 

Stosh

[Kudu 186]

OK, in my last Troop the only Troop equipment we had was one of those large carport dining shelters (if it looked like wind and heavy rain all weekend), plus a couple extra tents and sleeping bags.

 

Each Patrol had four plastic totes for equipment & food. The Scouts owned their own tents.

 

Quartermaster policy was always ad hoc depending on the personalities of the best available talent.

 

Kudu