The Dining Hall and Patrol Method

[Beavah 205]

 

Id really like to know when cooking meals became the only criteria for identifying the patrol method. Over and over someone posts the notion that if you eat in a dining hall then you are not following the patrol method. This would mean that we can only employ the patrol method on campouts because when we have troop meetings everyone ate some place different before hand. Unless you spend a good part of your day preparing, cooking and cleaning you are not really Scouting?

 

Since troops are probably makin' final camp choices and sendin' deposits and thinkin' about camp for this coming summer, seems like this ongoin' discussion is worth it's own thread outside of FCFY calendars .

 

B

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Certainly cooking by patrol offers more opportunity to teach practice and apply not only aspects the patrol method but the Leadership Development method, and it provides more opportunities for advancement.

 

I have often heard some scouters say that they use the dining hall because it is faster and gives the scouts more program time. That usually turns out to be more perception than fact. A lot also depends on the camp, there is not always an option anymore. Many camps have gone to a strictly dining hall format, mainly for cost reasons.

 

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Cooking isn't the only part of Scouting that really employs the Patrol Method, but it is probably the strongest. The boys have to come together as a team to get the job done, with everyone playing their part. The "stronger" Scout can still cover for the "weaker" Scout, but it is harder to do than in most endeavors (games, competitions, etc.). They only have a certain amount of time to accomplish the task, they have an objective that must be completed, they have immediate feedback about how they performed (is it edible?).

 

I am a firm believer that a group must be put into a pressure cooker to coax them into turning into a team. Without pressure, the group will never get beyond Forming. They will wonder around aimlessly, each going their own way, never coming together to seek a common goal. The pressure cooker brings on Storming, and hopefully leads to Norming and Performing. Patrol cooking is a great way to put that group of boys into the pressure cooker 3 times a day, all the while accomplishing a very needy and important task - eating well at camp, as opposed to some game or task the boys might not find either needy or important (and thus not care and not give their best effort). They don't have much of a choice when it comes to playing the cooking game - you play and win, or you go hungry. Many days I think Kudu has forgotten to take his medication, but I think this type of activity is what he (and B-P) was thinking of when they say learning comes from within. Each Scout soon realizes he must learn the skills of cooking, and must carry his own weight if he wants to eat well.

 

Going to the Dining Hall accomplishes very little in the way of teaching and instilling the Patrol Method, at least as far as I can see. I don't understand why so many Troops give up this fantastic opportunity to teach the Patrol Method at Summer Camp, just in order to get quicker meals. Add in all the advancement and MB requirements that can be learned, and it really makes one scratch their head.

 

We discussed the options for this coming summer at a Troop meeting in December. We talked about how many meals in the Dining Hall the boys really didn't like. We talked about waiting in line. We talked about all the opportunities for requirements they missed out on by eating in the Dining Hall. We talked about the ability to plan their own meals and to learn to cook them. After very carefull consideration, the boys decided they want to do their own cooking this summer instead of eating in the Dining Hall - very much to my delight! It is going to be a lot of work, but I can't wait!

[LongHaul 10]

While I do not disagree that cooking as a patrol strengthens the team and cooking as a patrol is probably the best way to hone leadership and cooperation, I fail to see why this must always be the focus of the outing. When we go to summer camp we do use a dinning hall. We have available to us a camp that employees a method of delivering the food already prepared to the camp site so while not actually cooking and cleaning utensils afterward each patrol can eat together. We also have the availability of lone troop camping which would allow the cooking in site of all meals but would require a 3 mile hike for program. With 10 outings a year I dont see why we need to spend our summer camp time cooking and cleaning. As it is we spend about 4 hours of the day eating or preparing to eat. Factoring in the 1 hour feet of the floor time after lunch this leaves 5 hours of program time per day. So unless a boy wants to schedule his day to be running from one area to another all day he probably can only work on three areas during the week. Im talking about areas where the scout is trying to develop a skill or learn a skill. Shot gun, archery, pioneering where the scout has to seek instruction, practice his skills and develop his knowledge and ability. If he wants to just have some fun along the way hiking, fishing, waterfront the day gets mighty short. Maybe its just that Im from Chicago and had the opportunity of both attending summer camp for 2 weeks every year as a youth and had relatives that owned a farm in Wisconsin where we spend most of the remaining summer. I dont look at summer camp as a week long advancement opportunity as much as a week long opportunity to see and do things these city boys dont otherwise get a chance to do. While I discourage troop cooking or outside cooking on outings I welcome it a summer camp.

LongHaul

 I have often heard some scouters say that they use the dining hall because it is faster and gives the scouts more program time. That usually turns out to be more perception than fact.

 For those that do employ patrol cooking at summer camp realistically how much time do you see being spent on meals. Again realistically.

[Eagledad 2779]

>>I have often heard some scouters say that they use the dining hall because it is faster and gives the scouts more program time. That usually turns out to be more perception than fact.

[LongHaul 10]

But as Robert points out, the camp doesn't have more time for their activities.

I'm sorry how does the fact that dinning halls do not add more time to a 24 hour day equate to the time available to the individual scout to avail themselves of a given activity? If I'm spending 8 hours a day on meals instead of 4 I have more time for program. If I'm asked to volunteer 2 hours each day to camp improvement and I complain that it takes away from program is saying that 2 hours a day camp improvement does not alter the time the camp has available for program a sensible reply?

LongHaul

[Venividi 35]

Brent Allen comments: Troops give up this fantastic opportunity to teach the Patrol Method at Summer Camp, just in order to get quicker meals.

 

I have had conversations on this topic with scouters from other troops in our area that attend dining hall camps. From those conversations, I gather that it is more than just to get quicker meals. Or to have more time for advancement (i.e. earning MB's). Beneath those explanations, patrol cooking described as work, as not being fun, and that they are on vacation and dont want to do chores that are seen as not fun.

I agree that it is more work - both for scouters, who may have to couch and counsel the storming, norming, ... process that BA describes, and also for the scouts, for whom that process is frustrating, until they get through it. I think that when the adults see it as work, the scouts pick up on that. If positioned as something enjoyable, the scouts will pick up on that. Positioned as something that makes a patrol self-sufficient, and they will take pride in being able to take care of themselves. Much in the same way that attitudes on winter camping are transferred to the scouts - adults that dont like winter camping create scouts that avoid it; adults that make it obvious that it is a fun challenge create scouts that develop that attitude.

 

I do see Eagledad's point in having such a strong patrol method culture that the patrols do patrol activities anyway. Eagledad, could you provide some of the activities that your patrols do at summercamp? Having gotten to know you through your posts, I suspect that it goes beyond lining up at flag ceremonies and dining halls together. How much time is spent be the patrols engaged in patrol activities during the week, and on what type of activities?

 

I do like the concept of the SPL going to meetings in place of the SM. I would expect that makes the SPL feel very proud to be entrusted to that level. Would appreciate your sharing of more detail.

[Eagledad 2779]

Sure. I think we looked at it from the idea that the Patrol Leaders have to initiate their patrol to do everything at camp. We also went to enough not so good camps that we learned how to kind of do our own troop program with in the Scout Camp program.

 

A few examples are we think like that the Patrol Leaders have to get their patrol up and in formation to do a Troop flag ceremony before we hike down to the Camp Flag Ceremony. We ask that scouts only come to Flag as a patrol. That forces the PL leader to get the scouts organized to bring them to the Troop Flag. Typically our troop arrives to the Camp Ceremony late the first couple of days. The embarrassment encourages the Patrol leaders to build better team work and to seek out guidience is they need some from the SPL. We don't allow the adults to follow or lead scouts to their classes. We want the scouts to learn how to seek out help there and and develop independence. Scouts are not allowed to leave camp without telling the patrol leader first. That sounds simple, it actually requires team work and understanding who is the responsible leader at the time because the PL is likely in class somewhere. IT is frustrating at first, but the patrol quickly learns how to create a roster so that there is always someone who is responsible in camp when needed.

 

From the adults perspective, all information goes from the SM to the SPL and on down to the PLs. That prevents parents who don't understand from overwhelming the SPL with suggestions and questions. You can imagine there are a lot. And that is why the SM works pretty hard too. We have a PLC every day so that the SPL pass along new camp information and to remind the PLs of our troop programs like a game, troop campfire and usually a troop swim or shoot. The SPL always volunteers our troop to do a Camp Flag ceremony, clean up detail, and a camp service project. That forces the SPL and PL to assign patrols and practice for their duty if nessasary. Our Troop stays busy, but we make sure there is there is more fun then work.

 

The SPL is pretty simple, but very busy. He manages the boys side of the program and is the between person for the scouts and adults. I keep talking about how we wear out the SPL, but I work hard on delegating and the SPL will wear out a couple ASPLs and Quartermasters as well.

 

It kind of sounds like we keep the the adults are seperated from scouts a lot. We do try to always keep the adult camp as far as possible from the scout to give them their independence. But we also encourage the parents to do some activities with the sons to give them time together, and while I don't like the parents to interrupt the scout side of the program, I do ask them to watch from a distance because it is fun. They can participate with the scout where ever their presence doesn't interupt our mission.

 

Sometimes the camps being far a part has its problems, but they are problems I want to see and change. The SPL goes to all the meetings and manages most of the problems. There are somethings that require the adults like meds and things. I find that even though we give the SPL the responsibility, the SM is warn out by the end of the week.

 

Interestingly we find at camp that the average of SPLs to be about 13 while ours are usually around 15 to 16. Sometimes we have trouble at camps that don't really understand the SPL being encharge. We work things out, but we don't usually go back to those camps.

 

Those are a few things that come to mind. It takes a troop time to get to a maturity where you can have older scout SPLs who run camp. But, I also think that giving our older scout so much responsibility is why we had some many older scouts.

 

Barry

[local1400 10]

If you have a great program, your patrols should be cooking at least 40 meals together during the course of the year, so a week at summer camp shouldn't make or break a troops patrol method. On your next outing, try timing meals from prep to finish, record the results, and compare it with the dining hall.

[Venividi 35]

" If I'm spending 8 hours a day on meals instead of 4 I have more time for program. "

 

Ya, but summer camp program areas may not be open during all non-meal hours. I have been to both. Hours that staff members were available in program areas was about the same.

 

Personally, I prefer patrol cooking camps. I consider cooking as a patrol to be program.

 

I am not suggesting that anyone else agree with me, nor am I trying to bash dining hall camps. Which ever works for you - there's more than one way to accomplish the aims.

[Stosh 3452]

If eating together at a summer camp mess hall causes a breakdown in one's idea of patrol-method, there's something basically wrong with their concept of the patrol-method.

 

Patrol-method scouting is so much more than meal prep and eating together. Two boys from a patrol could knock out breakfast, the second two knock out lunch and the next two supper. The other two could assist in cleaning up at each which will move that process along faster. So it takes an additional 6-8 hours to patrol cook, that is NOT 6-8 hours for each boy! Let's just assume for brevity it takes 2 hrs to prep and .5 to clean up 2.5 x 3 = 7.5 (close enough) That means each boy has a max of 2.5 hrs of prep/cleanup time and the two assisting for the day 1.5 hours of meal cleanup time. A couple of hours a day shouldn't crimp anyone's style. Meal preparation as servant leadership and eating together as a patrol are two different animals. Every FC boy should be able to prep a meal. If he is not FC he should be paired with a FC and they should be able to knock it out and get rank advancement credit for it.

 

Too many boy-led programs are really troop-method anyway and work well with dining halls and doing expedient things that interfere with patrol-method scouting. "From the adults perspective, all information goes from the SM to the SPL and on down to the PLs." It is expeient for adults to have the boys eat in the mess hall than to trust the PL's to actually lead their patrols. Patrol-method scouting does not need pressure-cooker tactics designed by adults to build teamwork.

 

The more I learn about scouting the more I realize I know nothing about boy-led, patrol-method. Yet somehow by doing it all wrong, I seem to be running a successful Troop and Crew. Go figure.

 

Stosh

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

As a Scout, I did unit level cooking during LT camp experiences. As a first year Scout (1968), the first year kids went to Scout Camp, the older ones onto the trail. We drew foods from the Commissary, we cooked.

 

As a second-fourth year Scout, I was out on a backpacking trail. We not only cooked,we carried our food.

 

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As an adult, my Council runs dining hall camps. Period. I'm not sure I like it, but I also have a prejuidice against Cooking MB not being in the Eagle Required list as it was in my era!

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Here's my question:

 

- Fewer cooks (only a small cookstaff for the staff).

- Fewer facilities (Benches, tables, do require repair. Silverware wears out. Even melamine eventually becomes brittle and breaks).

 

- Units provide own cook gear in unit cooking camps, or rent it.

 

Why would dining hall be lower cost per person than unit cooking?

[LongHaul 10]

For those that do patrol cooking are your camp program times altered to allow for meals? Our program uses what is called open programing. This means a boy can come to an area any time it is open and work with a counselor if one is available. 9am to 11:45 am and 2:15 to 5pm for most areas. Classes in Aquatics, shooting sports and a few others are assigned times due to the nature of the skill. These slots at our camp are 9:15 and 10:30 in the morning and 2:15 in the afternoon. Also who cooks for the staff? Do you have staff that do cooking only and not program? That would be why their availability does not change in terms of dinning hall or patrol cooking.

 LongHaul

[John-in-KC 311]

LH,

 

Because of State Health Codes where I serve, our Council contracts out foodservice. At one camp, the manager of the contract is, herself, a Vigil Honor OA member and the mom of an Eagle. She's able to attract some pretty good school cafeteria cooks as well as two CIA trained shift leaders. At the other camp, it's an annual struggle to find folks with current TB tine tests, let alone be qualified food handlers. The area is a major recreation area, and lots of restaurants open "for the season"... they pay more, bluntly.

 

BTW, again because of health codes, under 18s cannot be part of food preparation in the DH kitchens... reservation staff does the major cleanup.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[BrentAllen 10]

At our camp, there are 4 1-hour sessions in the morning, starting at 8:30 am, and ending at 12:30. Lunch is served at 12:45. After lunch, the camp has "Activity Periods" that run for 1 1/2 hours, starting at 2:00 and end at 5:00 pm. Dinner is served at 6:00 pm. The evening Activity Period begins at 7:00 pm and runs for 1 1/2 hours.

 

If Reveille is at 7:00 pm, Scouts have 1 hour and 15 minutes to prepare breakfast and eat. That shouldn't be a problem for a Patrol that is experienced in cooking. If it takes more time than that, they need more practice - and what better place than at Summer Camp! Pre-cooked bacon, scrambled eggs, fruit, grits, oat meal, bread - how long does it take to prepare that? The grits and oat meal only take boiling water.

 

Lunch is the same way, and should take even less time. Most people want a cold lunch during the hot summer months, so it should take very little prep time, and also very little clean up time.

 

Dinner can take a little longer, and that is fine. Most of our boys didn't do anything in the evening period, so there isn't a time crunch to get supper prepared and served. Dinner in the Dining Hall was probably the least popular with the boys. A lot of food went into the trash. Instead of getting the Mystery Meat of the Day, they can plan what they want - something they will actually like!

 

The benefits of patrol camping are huge. The patrols get to spend a lot more time together, and they get to learn how to be pretty efficient cooks, if they aren't already. Most lessons are learned through repetition, and I don't think cooking is any different. The boys don't get to do that much cooking on a weekend campout, and they have a whole month to forget what they learned! If meal time is taking too long, I suggest your Scouts need to spend MORE time cooking, not LESS, and Summer Camp is the perfect opportunity! The lessons learned will pay big dividends on your monthly campouts - better meals, prepared more efficiently and more smoothly.