Elections, Appointments, and Terms, oh my!

[Beavah 205]

In another thread, Kudu raised (in his inimitable way) the notion that the Hillcourt model of scouting suggested that PL's should stay PL's until they resigned or were removed, and accused 6-month terms of being a kow-tow to BSA Advancement/Leadership method.

 

He also suggested that the SPL should be selected by the PL's, not by the troop as a whole.

 

And he mentioned that in B-P's scheme, the SPL and other leadership positions were appointed.

 

Sounds like a worthy discussion, eh? We've got the continental/British SPL=Prime Minister system, the B-P/corporate/military SPL=guy-promoted-to-General system, and the somewhat more American SPL=president-for-fixed-term by general election system.

 

Which do you use in your troop? Have yeh ever thought about a different method? Why do you use the method you use?

 

[acco40 95]

I use the BSA method, the one I promised to deliver.

 

That said, what is the goal of the BSA? No, not to pay the professional's salary (but sometimes I wonder). One of the aims is to teach our youngsters leadership. One way of teaching is "showing" and another is "doing." Unlike a company whose goal is to make money for shareholders and therefore a secondary goal is to teach leadership to further goal #1, Scouting is the reverse. The primary goal is to teach leadership and the secondary goal is that patrols will run smoothly. If the worlds best PL resides in the Badger patrol, does it really teach the other Scouts how to be leaders if this person remains PL for six years?

[Kudu 186]

I always corner the very best leader in the Troop and ask him to serve as Patrol Leader for the new Scouts that I myself recruit once a year at the local school. Since he will be hanging out with little kids at Troop meetings and campouts, I usually suggest that he pick a buddy to be his Assistant Patrol Leader. This year this Patrol Leader decided to ignore my advice and picked one of the new Scouts instead as his APL. The Troop Guide is a buddy of his and camps with that Patrol and hangs out during the meetings. The PL's best friend just turned 18 so I will put him in some kind of Assistant Scoutmaster role related to that Patrol. If these older Scouts still long for more older company we can always throw an Instructor into the mix.

 

New Scouts that are recruited by the Scouts themselves usually join the Patrol of the recruiting Scout. This usually includes younger brothers and the younger brother's best friends. I don't see the problem of sibling rivalry that others experience. When a Patrol Leader in the older established Patrols starts missing campouts for some reason, I usually talk to him and the other natural leaders in the Patrol about what they consider to be the important characteristics of being a Patrol Leader. I usually learn that they have gone ahead and had a Patrol election when someone asks me for a Patrol Leader's patch.

 

As far as SPL goes, the Scouts have my little speeches memorized. One of them is that the most important leader in a Scout Troop is the Patrol Leader. Another is that the SPL only has one vote in the PLC so he is a tie-breaker, not the Patrol Leaders' boss.

 

As a result our SPLs tend to emerge from the dark shadows of puberty. Overnight a kid's voice drops, he gets taller, he gains 20 pounds of muscle, and his becomes the dominate voice yelling "FALL IN!!!!" If he is not a Patrol Leader then when the SPL leaves for a more important job (like Patrol Leader of the new Scouts), or for college, or for some reason can't attend all the time, it is usually obvious to everyone who the new SPL is. If anyone else is interested in the position, then we have an election but a SPL election has nothing to do with the Patrol Leaders.

 

When the SPL is not there, the Patrol Leaders pick someone to coordinate the meeting or the campout.

 

Kudu

 

[Trevorum 24]

Kudu's model sounds interesting. I wish I could be an ASM for six months or so to observe and see how that troop of scouts does things. But our troop is more like Acco's.

[Kudu 186]

acco40 writes:

 

I use the BSA method, the one I promised to deliver.

 

The only promise I remember giving is "The Promise of Scouting" found on page 1 of the BSA Boy Scout Handbook.

 

That said, what is the goal of the BSA?

 

Ugh, I really hope you are not going to say that the goal of the BSA is "leadership"!

 

No, not to pay the professional's salary (but sometimes I wonder).

 

And sometimes I wonder why "leadership" in Scouting is defined by the professionals' corporate leadership courses rather than William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course!

 

One of the aims is to teach our youngsters leadership.

 

Gawd, I really, really hope leadership has not yet been promoted to one of the "Aims." The Patrol Method suffered enough as a result of leadership's promotion to "equal" Method status.

 

The primary goal is to teach leadership and the secondary goal is that patrols will run smoothly.

 

I must have missed the memo, but I haven't taken any indoor theory courses since the yellow blouse toy scissors and school paste incident :-/

 

If the worlds best PL resides in the Badger patrol, does it really teach the other Scouts how to be leaders if this person remains PL for six years?

 

The solution is obvious, acco!

 

Convince the SPL to appoint 26 Librarians. That way each one gets to be the One Minute Manager of his own letter of the alphabet (which, after all, is the primary goal of Scouting), and the Badger Patrol gets the world's best Patrol Leader for six years if they want.

 

Kudu

 

The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!

 

Roland Phillips

 

[Eamonn 61]

A few things that are very different in the UK than on this side of the pond. (I should add that I have been on this side pond for over 20 years and things over there have changed a lot!!)

In all the time I was a Cub, Scout, Venture Scout and Leader in the UK,I can't ever remember any sort of a relationship with Scouts and the schools. No School sign-up nights. Some units did meet in school buildings. In fact when I was a Wolf Cub and a Scout in the 24th Fulham (Sands End) we met in a school. - A girls school!!

Boys in cubs moved into the Troop on or very near their 11th birthday.

This meant that there was never a very large number moving from the pack to the troop at one time and there was no need for a New Scout Patrol. In the 1980's a new Link Badge was introduced. This allowed the little Lad to move from the pack to the Troop with a pal. He got to meet with his new PL and the adult leaders along with a few other basic requirements (Law, promise, history, Scout sign.) Back when I was Scout leader (SM) of the 17th Fulham (Pioneers) most times when a Cub moved from the pack to the troop he was ready to be invested as a Scout and his new PL played a big role in the investiture ceremony.

It is also worth remembering that in the UK there are Scout Groups, the pack, troop and Venture unit were all linked and part of the same. This was supposed to happen back when we had Wolf Cubs, Boy Scouts, Senior Scouts and Rovers but due to lack of members didn't happen a lot and a lot of the older guys ended up in District units.

Once a month the Group Scouters met.Under the leadership of the Group Scout Leader, at this meeting we would discuss which boys were moving from one program to the next. The Cub Scout Leader would inform me about the Cub Scouts who were turning 11 and I'd inform the Venture Scout Leader about the Lads I had who were turning 16 and ready to move on to the Venture Unit.

Yes I only had the Scouts from age 11 till they were 16!!

I would attend a Pack Meeting and talk to the boys who were about to leave the pack, then I'd go to their home and meet with their parents.

Later I'd meet with the PLC and inform them who was coming and we would discuss which patrol they would be joining.

While I wish I could say we tried to pick the Patrol which would be best for the little Lad who was joining. Sadly that wasn't always the case!! A lot of times he was placed in a Patrol that needed the numbers.

When the Troop was new we did elect Patrol Leaders, but after a while most of the time the Scout who was the oldest Scout in the Patrol was the PL, the APL was the next oldest. Being as they were only in the Troop for five years and we only had Patrols of six this worked out well.

The SPL was elected by the Patrol Leaders, but remained the Patrol Leader of his Patrol.

Of course when the Troop went through "Growth Spurts" and the need for new Patrols came about the system fell on it's face.

The 17th went from having no Scouts to having 80 in under 5 years. It became unmanageable so we split the troop in two. When we needed to find a new Patrol Leader we discussed it at the PLC most of the time the choice was clear.

It is my humble opinion that having the annual cross over of a large group of younger lads all joining the Troop at one time hurts the Boy Scout program.

I happen to like Patrols that have Lads of mixed ages, sure at times there are problems and there does need to be activities for the older Scouts without the younger Scouts, but even these can be used as a carrot for the younger Scouts.

While the idea of the New Scout Patrol does have advantages, I don't think it works as well as having the younger Scouts joining an existing patrol and learn from the older Scouts. I also think it gives the older Scouts an opportunity to really use their leadership skills.

I know I have a lot of weird ideas!

I also happen to think having Boy Scouts go till 18 is not working and harms a lot of Troops.

Maybe Boy Scouting is better off without me?

Eamonn.

[scoutingagain 20]

Interesting thread.

 

We do SPL & PL elections in the fall, and those elected serve one year terms. Sometime the troop or a particular patrol will suffer the consequences electing an SPL or PL that doesn't quite cut it. Sure, running for the office, seemed like a good idea at the time, but now they are expected to attend PLCs and actually do something. The issue seems to occur more at the PL level now than at the SPL level.

 

Now, there are several adult leaders in the troop that would love to do away with this boy led democracy and appoint leaders. And I can see how some could argue such a system might better prepares the boys for work in the real world outside of politiec, i.e. business, government or the military. How many of us got to vote for our boss?

 

But this boy led democracy that's a big part of the BSA system I think is unique in youth organizations. There are very few youth organizations where elected positions actually have something beyond symbolic authority. i.e. President of the Junior High School?

 

 

SA