Is there hope for a "Webelos 3" Troop?

[Scouter4321 10]

Short background. Troop is mainly scoutmaster run. Boys show up, rarely knowing what is planned for that night because they do not plan it. Often they are called that day to be told where to go for the meeting. Only nod to patrol method is when the boys collect dues. No inter-patrol competitions. Very rare patrol outing. When games are played, boys are split up by "counting off" and such. Scoutmaster runs the show for the most part when it comes to skills teaching. He does allow the SPL to do a short opening, and suggest games. Not much peer to peer teaching or older-boy to younger-boy mentoring.

 

Tonight I attempted to introduce some more facets of the patrol method to the boys. I asked the boys to take a look at some activities that they might like to do so that it could be more of "their troop". I had some suggestions of local things written out, but also said they could discuss it and come up with some of their own. Their attention span was so short that when they broke into patrols to discuss activities, some could not stay in their patrols for 2 minutes and began running around the meeting hall.

 

Games were played next. The boys chose the games and proceeded to take a fun, active game and turn it into a free for all, knocking down chairs, throwing the church's chalk and pencils at each other, pounding on the piano. A different game was started with similar results after a few minutes. I stopped the game and had words with them saying that I would like them to be able to have fun, but I'd also like them to have some self-discipline to not disrespect our Chartered organization by some of the things they were doing. Just shortly after that, I suggested that they discuss the upcoming Webelos visit to our troop and what activities we might like to plan to do when they visit. I brought up again that they needed to come up with some fun activities that aren't totally out of control. Several boys were smart alecks and said stuff like, "Lets do a multiplication game". (Implying that because they weren't allowed to run rampant, they were expected to not play the more active games)

 

I know I've often seen it mentioned here that some folks are shocked by the chaos of a Boy Scout Troop meeting. So is this kind of behavior a normal thing in troops? Am I overreacting? I'm not talking about boys playing "Chicken fight" and getting rough when they are playing. That I am okay with, even if chaotic! I'm talking about just the rampant running around and disrespect for property and others.

 

I'm coming to the realization that these boys have, in a sense, been in Webelos III mode. They have to have some adult telling them what to do and what not to do. They do listen and pay attention to the Scoutmaster's lessons when he is there. Scoutmaster is very knowledgeable on many scouting topics and is a pretty dynamic speaker. However, this leaves little time for any type of leadership for the boys themselves. I guess I'm just disappointed because I've been to summer camps and other scouting events and see scouts (of the same ages) who are so much more mature and showing so much more leadership experience and self discipline than this motley crew.

 

But after tonight, I am thinking maybe it's just not worth trying to introduce the patrol method. We'll just stay with the status quoi and Webelos III this troop will always be.

 

Encouragement? Where would YOU go from here?

 

Scouter4321

 

 

[SueM 10]

Is there hope??? Yes! But don't expect it to happen overnight!! You mention this only from your own POV...How do the other ASM's feel about the situation?? It sounds like you might need to have a discussion with the SM!! At the very least look for other opportunities to start encouraging the boys to start thinking and making decisions for themselves.

 

I took over as the Scoutmaster for a very similar troop a year ago and we are JUST starting to get to the point where the boys are starting to "get it"!!! For the first few months after I took over, it was tough! I came to the conclusion though very quickly that if I saw -1- positive step during every meeting, I was happy!!! I told them from the start that my vision for the troop was to get it back to being a BLT and that my goal for the first year was to have them plan and execute -1- major event! We didn't quite make it within the year...but that's ok..it is within sight and I am satisfied with their progress!! I still have to remind both myself and my ASM's to back off stepping in to quickly to solve problems. To paraphase B-P "a man (or in my case a woman!) should never do anything that a boy can do"...I try to keep that in mind!

 

Good luck..stay positive!!

 

SueM

 

[Cobra06 10]

Well, I have to agree with SueM. I have recently (last month) taken over a Troop which is quite similar - the adults run the show and cater to the boys. Before I took over, I had the boys at the PLC come up with a Troop meeting plan and the result was similar to what you described. On top of that, the then-Scoutmaster gave me a load of grief because the meeting wasn't "orderly."

 

I have read quite a few of these discussions and everyone seems to agree that turning around a Troop is a long term process. I have seen folks say it took them anywhere from 1 to 3 years!

 

Since, I am effectively in the same boat, I can't tell you from experience what works and where the potholes are, but I am sticking to my guns and slowly introduce the Patrol method to these guys and see where it gets me. I think the most important thing is to concentrate on the "small successes" because several of these equals one big change!

 

Good luck!

 

Cobra06

[gwd-scouter 11]

Oh boy, sure am glad I'm not the only one! Took over as SM last year with a Troop that had the SPL open meetings, then adults mostly took over. A lot of the same happening on camping trips. Boys coming to me asking what to do next. I was a Cub Scout leader for many years prior to becoming a SM, so learning to sit back and let the boys do it was a difficult learning experience for me too!

 

I was also told that turning it around would take a long time and one year later, I can see small steps forward - both by the Scouts and by me. ASMs are also learning to step back and not jump in at the first sign of trouble.

 

Current SPL is really trying hard, but having difficulty controlling meetings especially with older Scouts used to the "old" way - going off by themselves, playing around, etc.

 

I certainly get discouraged. Especially when the Scouts plan a trip and we get a good percentage signed up to go. Then, the week before we are scheduled to go, Scouts start dropping out - other plans, just don't feel like it, etc. It is disheartening to plan a trip and then only have 3-4 Scouts attend.

 

I sometimes ask myself "why am I doing this? If the Scouts aren't interested, why should I be?" Then, the boys will make a small step of progress and I figure, that's what it's all about.

 

Patrol method? That seemed to be one of our biggest hurdles. In fact, we just formed Patrols a few weeks ago. We've been operating without them since we haven't had consistent attendance at meetings. 13 registered with the Troop, only 5 showing up for meetings (and never the same 5). And, the Scouts with the poorest attendance were those in positions of responsibility. How can you run a meeting when your SPL, ASPL, Troop Guide, Scribe, etc. don't show up?

 

I was told by one ASM (no longer with our Troop) to cut the older guys loose and concentrate on the younger Scouts. I really didn't think that was an option. I wanted to get ALL the scouts active and enthusiastic about the Troop.

 

I took time to talk to each Scout in a POR and let them know that they can't do their POR if they aren't at meetings. And, they can't be trained in their POR if they don't show up for training. Slow progress being made and now, about a year later, we have about 10 at each meeting, including all the older Scouts. It's progress.

 

Good luck with your Troop. This forum is great place for ideas and other's words of wisdom and encouragement.

 

 

[EagleInKY 14]

A lot of us are in - or have been in - similar situations. Mine was a new troop, but we had to be adult led in the beginning since most were just crossing over from Webelos. We're closing in on 3 years and they are doing pretty well. We're still not there yet, but we're making progress. I'd give us an A for effort and a B+ for execution on the boy-led part. However, I'd give us a C- on the patrol method.

 

Our best leaders have made it to the troop level leadership and are doing a good job, we're still developing that second string of leaders to lead at the patrol level. They are coming, but it takes time.

 

I think it takes at least 3 years to turn a troop around. If you think about it, that's about a "half-generation" of scouts. That makes sense when you think about it. You generally need to get the new kids developed to take on the senior roles, and that is going to take about 3 years.

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Scouter4321,

You're sure not alone in this, and we who are dealing with it are always appreciative of any support that anyone gives us. So, here are my thoughts.....

 

My troop has about 20 Scouts in it. A couple of Scoutmasters back, we had a "problem" during the tenure of one SM, and membership dropped quite a bit. The SM previous to me has done a great job of rebuilding as far as he could. Membership is back on its way up. As our size has grown, we've gotten more into using the patrol method. Some of the older Scouts aren't "with it" yet, and are still seeing the patrol leader positions as popularity contests. We've lost a few Scouts who preferred just showing up and screwing around for 90 minutes while a handful worked on actual Scout activities. I've had to remove 2 youth leaders who weren't showing up and didn't take their role seriously. (we've gone to a "3 strikes" rule for the leaders, ie, 3 unexcused absences and you're out.)

 

Last spring we started using patrols more extensively. It's been difficult for the youth leaders, and we've spent a good deal of time training and mentoring. We started using the Program Features this year, which has actually made things quite a bit easier from a planning standpoint and taken some pressure off the youth leaders to come up with things to do. We're working on restructuring our patrols as well to get more in line with BSA recommendations, and the Scouts have been very positive on this aspect. It's a slow go. But I am at the point with our troop meetings that I really don't have to say much anymore. I've been working A LOT with the SPL, and he's picking up on things pretty quickly. We've, more and more, gotten away from the meetings becoming a freeforall at some point. The trick really just seems to be making sure that the activities are well laid out and fill up the meeting. Suddenly, guys I hardly saw are starting to show up more.

 

But, to be honest, I think we need to get a couple of more "harvests" of Webelos to really get the thing going. They come in with no preconceived notions, and can get right into the new program. So, over the next couple of years, my goal is to get the troop up in size to about 30-35, which should give us 4 patrols or so, and work extensively on our older Scout program, which is kind of weak right now.

 

One continuing challenge that I'm sure everyone runs into is that in addition to being the SM, I also ended up being the "acting" activity chair, advancements chair, and recruiting chair. So, right now, it's taking up a LOT of my free time. It's fun, to be sure, but sometimes I could use a little less "fun" One thing I might throw out is that over the summer I started using some software called Troopmaster. Still learning it, but boy, so far I like it a lot.

 

All the best, and hang in there. It'll get better, but you might as well know that in your situation as described, not only do the Scouts need to get with the program, so does the SM. That could be a challenge as well, depending on how he views things.

[Eagle76 10]

You are not alone in your struggle. The different twist in our troop is that many committee members have been to SM/ASM training, so they think they know what they're doing. They say over and over "It's a Boy Run Troop" in the Orwellian 1984-ish belief that saying it makes it so. They are blind to the degree to which they take over activities.

 

Example: Last Saturday's Scouting for Food drive, the ex-SM, now ASM was handing out the maps, he and the committee chairperson were telling the boys to buddy up and start out. The SPL hadn't arrived yet, so they took over.

Example: Saturday night was a very successful (that is, highly attended) bowling outing - totally planned, organized, and directed by the adults, the same ones who are most insistent that it IS a Boy Run Troop.

 

But as in AA, the first step to solving your problem is admitting you have one. I'm still trying to get across to some people that we have a problem. In the meantime, I'm trying to get the boy leadership to do a better job planning, but I'm having trouble getting them to accept responsibility and take ownership of the outings. They've been told this IS a Boy Run Troop, and they believe it, and so expect things to stay the same as they have been. The biggest ray of hope is the spirited, eager group of new Scouts. With some guidance, I have high hopes that in a few years they will be able to lead the troop as it should be.

[SueM 10]

gwd-scouter,

 

>I sometimes ask myself "why am I doing this? If the >Scouts aren't interested, why should I be?" Then, the >boys will make a small step of progress and I figure, >that's what it's all about.

 

Believe me...the number of times I have asked -myself- (or my own mentor!) this same question are too many times to count!! But the answer I always got and now try to keep in mind everytime I start to wonder again is "Remember..you are doing it -for the boys-!" If you can make a difference in ONE boys' life, it's worth it in the end!!

 

 

Sue M.

 

[SueM 10]

>The biggest ray of hope is the spirited, eager group of >new Scouts. With some guidance, I have high hopes that >in a few years they will be able to lead the troop as >it should be.

 

It has been my experience that this is the absolute truth!! This is exactly what has started to turn my troop around. My NSP from last year had all come though the pack together (with the exception of one) and they came in ready, willing and excited to be scouts! The father of the other boy also came in with a decided interest in being the NSP Guide so I gave him free rein. These boys began functioning as a patrol within 2 weeks time and after several months of watching what they were doing, the older boys started to try to imitate what they were seeing! The older boys never had that kind of example to learn from previously so it was kind of neat! Some of my ASM's wanted me to start reorganizing the NSP in with the others and I refuse to do it..I've see what happened the last time we did that..boys could never bond with their new patrols and were continually trying to do things with their old one. The NSP is doing great, so why mess that up? If it ain't broke..why try and fix it?

 

sue m.

 

[Beavah 205]

The Patrol Method is an important method in scouting, at least for troops that get big enough to form two patrols.

 

But when you are starting a new unit, or attempting to recover/recycle/improve an old unit, it's not the FIRST method you should pay attention to. You tried to "turn on" the Patrol Method before you had taken any steps to address the Youth Leadership method. So you removed the adult leadership structure with nothing else ready to take its place.

 

You need to start with the Adult Association and Personal Growth methods. Build good relationships with kids, and identify how to help each of them grow and experience some successes from independent effort. They have to be able to feel supported; they need to feel the "zorch" of small independent successes before anything else can happen.

 

Next you need to build up the Uniform and Ideals methods. These provide some positive unit culture and structure. This includes not just clothing uniforms, but some rituals and habits that "always happen" at meetings that the kids can work within.

 

Next work on making your Advancement Method meaningful... no badge factories, an occasional "no". Earning rank needs to be a challenge that you skin your knees climbing but feel proud of achieving. Being of higher rank is something that others have to see as being meaningful.

 

Then you're ready for Youth Leadership. Your youth feel supported by Adult Association. They've developed personally and have come to seek Personal Growth on their own initiative. The troop has some well-developed Uniform structures, good habits, and Ideals that can support wobbly youth leaders taking their first steps. Talented youth who are willing to do hard work have been identified to the adults and their peers by Advancement.

 

Patrol Method is last, when the youth leaders have stopped wobbling and can at least walk confidently if not run.

 

Be patient. It takes one "generation" of 3 years to make this happen. And the real magic doesn't start until the second generation... the one that "grew up in" real patrols where all of this positive unit culture and support was already in place.

 

 

 

[Kudu 186]

Patrol Method is last

 

I think SueM's experience is closer to the truth:

 

"These boys began functioning as a patrol within 2 weeks time and after several months of watching what they were doing, the older boys started to try to imitate what they were seeing!"

 

11 and 12 year-olds can definitely begin to function as a Patrol within two weeks of joining Scouts if the Patrols are physically separated from each other during campouts, and somebody makes sure that the Patrol Quartermaster checks off equipment lists and food lists before every campout.

 

Remember that Baden-Powell observed that all over the world, boys tend to organize themselves in small patrol-sized groups and a natural leader always emerges, regardless of the culture to which they belong. Patrols are natural, they are probably genetic.

 

This time of year it takes a lot longer in snow-country if the Troop camps in cabins and the adults try to make things more "efficient" by using the "troop method" :-)

 

Ideals and Personal Growth are all well and good, but if it isn't done by Patrols, it isn't Scouting.

 

The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! --Roland Phillips.

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Ideals and Personal Growth are all well and good, but if it isn't done by Patrols, it isn't Scouting.

 

Yah, riighhhttt.

 

And if it's done by Patrols without sound youth leadership and support in place, it isn't Scouting either. It's a bullied gang, da Lord of the Flies, or wreckless endangerment.

 

 

[Kudu 186]

And if it's done by Patrols without sound youth leadership and support in place, it isn't Scouting either. It's a bullied gang, da Lord of the Flies, or wreckless endangerment.

 

I agree. The Patrol Method depends on a disciplined environment, and Scouting literature in general does not address that issue very well.

 

My best year ever was when Brian, our high school football hero Eagle Scout, volunteered to be Troop Guide for his senior year. It was obvious that the sixth-grade New Scout Patrol (NSP)--which he helped me recruit-- admired him greatly. Everyone in the school (even the sixth-graders) knew his name. Perhaps they were surprised that he would even talk to them, let alone take an interest in their development week after week, campout after campout.

 

The Patrol Method worked effortlessly that year, and I felt like some kind of genius Scoutmaster :-)

 

A "Webelos 3" Troop like Scouter4321 describes does not have that kind of Junior Leadership from which to draw, but a no-nonsense adult who can demand respect from a distance can certainly provide the NSP "Patrol Method in two-weeks" environment that SueM describes.

 

All this "Leadership Development" abstract leadership skills stuff sometimes makes the Patrol Method sound more complicated than it really is.

 

Baden-Powell's Patrol System is really just playing army without the toy guns :-/

 

Eleven-year-olds need help in checking off personal and group equipment & food lists before the campout, and learning how to set up their tents after they get there. But usually the fat kid already knows how to cook, and if you are warm and dry and the food is good, what else do you really need for a great weekend?

 

Just keep the Patrols physically separated as much as possible.

 

Kudu

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Okay der.

 

I see whatcha mean.

 

I think that you're assuming an adult or a youth leader like Brian, your Eagle Scout senior who "got it."

 

I'm just not sure that this "webelos 3" troop has anybody, youth or adult, like that. Building up things through employing the different methods of boy scouting isn't JUST for developing youth understanding ... it's as much or more a set of steps for helping the ADULTS to build understanding and capacity. They have to learn to let go gradually, as they see successes build.

 

Da kids can learn fast, eh? They're used to it. It's da adults that take time to find the way.

 

 

[Scouter4321 10]

Thanks to everyone for their advice and shared experiences. Here's a brief update on my story.

Talked to the committee and with the Scoutmaster about trying to have a real PLC (currently PLC does not meet) so that we can take baby steps to have a BLT. SM says he would be all for that. But he is discouraged because he feels that times are different, and that boys these days do not want the responsibility or do not have the time for the responsibility of running their troop. There are too many other demands for their time.

 

A few other committee members seemed to agree that a Troop is nothing more than a youth fellowship group without the leadership aspect. We are probably at a turning point, where we can begin to introduce boy led concepts, slowly.

 

In the interest of "striking while the iron is hot", how would you suggest we begin? It seems that if we as Adult Leaders and Committee members come in and say "We are going to try this", it's almost as if it is just more adult-led stuff. However, I realize that the boys will not do it without a push and without probably some constant guidance. Do we need the "blessing" of the current quasi-PLC?

 

My first thought is that we set up a date for elections (not currently done on any sort of schedule), and talk to all the boys about the responsibilities that will go along with any of these leadership positions. That way, if they choose to run, at least they will know what they are getting into and that things are going to be expected to be different.

 

Scouter4321(This message has been edited by Scouter4321)