Where Societies Adult men?????

[SeattlePioneer 144]

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Perhaps you haven't noticed: men and women are different. Men and women both do crafts --- but usually they are different crafts.

 

And what I said was that women today are STILL doing the same cutesy craft stuff that drove me out of Cub Scouts decades ago. That's not being critical of women, who are doing what they can do.

 

It's more a criticism for the absence of men and the kinds of skills and interests they bring to the table.

 

For the 4th year in a row I've been involved with helping with my district Cub Scout day camp. At our last meeting we had a dozen female volunteers turn out and two men --- myself and another man I recruited from my pack.

 

Without the women I doubt there would be a day camp. But the men make some very important contributions, in my experience. And of course women usually don't even recognize what they don't bring to the table.

 

I again note that isn't the fault of women. What is needed is more men involved in Cub Scout programs, in my experience.

 

So please don't give me this "blaming all women" hackneyed complaint. You merely demonstrate that like most women, you don't understand the issue.

 

 

[Engineer61 19]

OP asked ...

 

"So where have this generation of fathers gone?????"

"Video games or too self absorbed???"

 

Some of us are too busy keeping roofs over heads while keep our own sanity. Wasting a hard earned weekend hanging out with 20-30 loud and undisciplined boys while they struggle to boy-lead themselves into or out of something is too painful to deal with.

 

Some of us have no interest in the outdoors.

 

[drmbear 10]

I appreciate the fact that there are women that are willing to step in and pick up the slack when there is no one else to do it. As well, I think the Cub Scout program is very highly dependent on women at all levels, particularly since it is an adult lead and run program, and because the kids are at an age where connection to "mom" is still a significant factor in their lives.

 

As the boys transition to Boy Scouts there is an entirely different dynamic. The program is lead and run by the youth. A handful of adults are all that's needed among the SM and ASM ranks to support a good size troop. Other parents provide support on the Troop Committee, and there is plenty to do there.

 

In my opinion, no matter how great and capable a woman is, I believe only men should be serving in the SM and ASM ranks. Here is my reason - I have spent the last twenty years(mostly not in Scouts) exploring and experiencing men's work, how to be a "better" man, the development of men, and cross-cultural rites of passage of boys to men throughout human history. The most significant step in the transformation of a boy to a man is the action of stepping away from "mother," away from women, and into a community of men. This is something that is severely lacking in our society, and I believe it is part of the problem when asked "where are the adult men?" If boys don't have the chance to move away from women, the truth is that they may lack in their ability to develop into the adult men you are seeking. Our society has been stuggling with this issue since the industrial revolution pulled men out of homes to go work in the factories, so it is not something new. Even many of us that consider ourselves "men" because of our age may not have had the real opportunity to develop into MEN. The men being described here, lacking as fathers, rather play video games than take a role in raising their kids, that become selfish in their personal activities instead of what is important for their family and kids, failing to be responsible, are all just examples of boys that were never given a chance to develop into men. And regardless of what you think you can do to get in the middle of the process as a woman, you cannot "do" anything. Boys will become "men" by growing into a community of men, AWAY from women.

 

As an aside, the likelihood of a potential male leader wanting to get in the middle of a Troop leadership situation where most or all of the SM and ASM spots are filled with women is about nothing. I'm a man completely involved in my kids' lives, and even I wouldn't want to go there.

[Lisabob 13]

SP: baloney.

 

I guarantee you, you never went to any of the den meetings in the pack I was part of. We had male and female den leaders. The dens that were strong had great programs. The dens that didn't, had lousy programs. It wasn't about the gender of the leader. It was about the creativity and ability to use resources of the leader.

 

Yes, there were things that I didn't know how to do or wasn't especially comfortable doing. That's where using your resources comes in. So I'm not awesome with wood carving. There's a dad, grandpa, uncle, cousin, guy from the local wood carver's guild, neighbor, etc., SOMEWHERE around who actually is good at that stuff - just gotta find them and ask.

 

And by the way, the (male) leader of one of our webelos dens taught his boys to sew. And they loooooooved it. Their standard line (remember, 4th graders): well if we can cook and sew, then we never have to get married!

 

I don't think it is necessarily the case that we should "blame" either gender or expect them to be the same, or seek to exclude, or whatever. I was just irked by the "its the women's fault" or wait - "wimmen" - that several of you fellas were tossing out there.

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

Unfortunately, that's one of those universal questions that can't really be applied universally. By that I mean that we all recognize it as a societal issue but we don't all experience it. I used the word "issue" deliberately because while it's a problem in Basement's are, it's not a problem elesewhere, but even those of us who live in the "elsewhere" recognize the issue.

 

I think much of the answer, then, must be answered based on your local conditions. Where are the men in Basement's area? I just don't know - it seems, based on Basement's posts, that the area is a relatively impoverished community dominated by single parent (mostly female) and grandparent families. Unfortunately, from the outside, the first answer to come to mind is that isn't very flattering, is very stereotypical, and may not be correct.

 

However, if you were to come my way and ask that question, we'd wonder what your agenda was as we've not experienced that shortage of men and would be waiting for the slam on minority inner city communities.

 

There is also the problem of trying to compare today with the past. When I was growing up in the 1970's, my mother worked outside the home for 3 hours per day, 5 days a week - todays working mother works 40 to 50 hours per day. My father left for work at 7:45 am and was home by 3:45 - his work day was 7 hours long. That was fairly common of my friends fathers too so meeting at the church at 4:30 to go camping for the weekend with the Troop wasn't a big inconvenience for anyone. Today, dads are working longer hours as well.

 

Let's not forget that from WW2 on, there has been a major change in where Americans live. While our major cities were large, the majority of Americans prior to WW2 lived in rural and semi-rural areas. There were fewer major American cities back then too - NYC, LA, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh - that's pretty much it for the really large cities back then - Dallas was still cow pasture, Houston was still oil fields, all the other cities we would now call major were just in their potential at the time. After WW2, we developed real suburbs, and small cities became bigger cities and now over 70% of Americans live in urban or suburban areas. That's had a major affect on a lot of other things - folks spend less time outdoors, there are fewer hunters and fisherman, men are spending a lot more time golfing and less time on the "manly" outdoor pursuits - and I think that's reflected in Scouting as well.

 

Scouting has always been slow to embrace change in society - it's not just the 3 G's - there are subtle discriminations taking place too, mostly due, I believe, to the emphasis on the "traditional". We tried, in the 1970's, to urbanize Scouting, because that's where the population growth is. We failed, I think, not because of bad program materials, but because traditionalists failed to embrace the change. Today, we're very good at attracting the 2 parent suburban/semi-rural family with Leave it to Beaver visions still dancing in their eyes instead of recognizing the very real needs of units like Basements. I'll bet basement would welcome with wide flung arms single, adult males who want to help but since the 2-parent paradigm is still primary, they're looked upon with great suspicion.

 

I suspect that we'll be stuck trying to anser the question until the BSA can figure out a way to adjust to our new realities.

[Stosh 3452]

We all know that men are from Mars and women, from Venus. How they interact with others is very reflective of those differences. I always use the little "test" to demonstrate these differences.

 

Mom and Dad are standing at the bottom of a tall tree. Their young daughter is climbing it. When asked what advice the girl should get, Mom's more often than not answers, "Be careful!". Dad's will advise, "How high can you go?!". This seems to be the standard. BUT if the child were a boy?, Mom's more often than not answers, "Be careful!" and Dad's will advise, "How high can you go?!".

 

It is important that there be a balance between these two philosophies in raising children. They of course need to be cautious when they "climb trees", but without Dad, they will never reach for the stars! It makes no difference if it's a boy or girl child, they both need this dualism in their development.

 

BSA promotes the quest for the best, reaching for the stars so to speak. As time passes and society changes from a male dominant society to one with more and more female influences, society becomes more cautious and reserved. Don't believe me, just look around. BSA, in response to such changes, has scaled back the adventure of reaching for the stars.

 

Stosh

[skeptic 992]

Engineer:

 

"Some of us have no interest in the outdoors."

 

If that is the case, then why would they even consider the BSA? Whether or not it is as extensive as it once was, which really depends on the unit program, outdoors is still a major part of the program. Someone joining with no interest in nature and the outdoors makes no sense at all.

[Basementdweller 608]

just back from day three of day camp.

 

 

So where are the men at????

 

What are they doing????

 

How many families have been destroyed by Facebook romances???? Women and men hooking up ending marriages......

[Engineer61 19]

"Some of us have no interest in the outdoors."

 

"If that is the case, then why would they even consider the BSA? "

 

The Dad's *didn't* consider it. How you ask?

 

Because the Moms got it started with Cubs, which the Moms ran.

 

Then once the crossover happens, there's this magic hand-off to Dad, "Get out there and camp."

 

Like the attitude than my son's friend's parents gave at the AOL ceremony... "Whew, that's finally over, now we can go on with real life."

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

My guess is that this problem was made worse by the plague of divorce and single mother families, and having two lesbians raising a boy is not going to improve things either.

[drmbear 10]

The two lesbians want their boy in Scouts so they have a significant male influence, but because of the blatant discrimination in Scouting they are not welcome to be a part of it. That is what is so screwed up - boys that need it not being able to participate because of stupid rules concerning identity rather than behavior.

[Basementdweller 608]

while the lesbian thing maybe entertaining...

 

it is zero help....

[shortridge 184]

Shorter Seattle:

 

Single moms are scary and probably Godless.

 

Lesbian moms have solved the single problem, but are scary and Godless in a different way.

 

America is threatened by strong women!

[sailingpj 18]

Seattle, would you be happier if the kids had two dads instead of two moms?

 

We definitely have this problem in my ship. We have almost no adults that have stepped up to work with the crew directly. Most of the parents that have stepped up are mothers that want to keep their kids safe. Obsessively safe. We had a couple dads like that too, but we only had 3 dads volunteer to help out in the past few years, and only one or to are still there.

 

We have just as hard a time finding female adult leaders as we do males. Nobody wants to help out. They just want to drop off their kids for the weekend with a check.

[DeanRx 69]

Is it the single parent family? Maybe... but divorce rates are actually DOWN over the past 10 years...

 

In my part of the world, the economy is bad, but most folks are still gainfully employed... most often the male in the household. The "bread winner" is working longer hours and more weekends to make the same amount of $$ they did in a 40 hr week 4 years ago.

 

I can't count the number of scouts (both cubs and boys) who I've been involved with at the unit level who you ONLY see mom with. Dad is working late, on a business trip, working weekends, etc... to keep them in their upside down 5/1-arm financed house!

 

Societies "adult men" are one of two places... they have either by choice of their own or choice of their ex-spouse checked out on their family and no longer participate as a parent, OR they are at WORK - all the time. I know guys with 2 to 3 jobs to keep the family afloat.

 

Why do they not help out at day camp? Because DAY camp is durring the DAY - when most people WORK~! Unless you are a teacher or some other profession that has a huge chunk on summer off, you are WORKING to PAY for junior to attend DAY camp.

 

Its a sign of the times - people are still "doing well" in my neighborhood.... there is just a lot more DOing to keep the level of WELL they and their families have come to expect, regardless of a crappy economy.