noname 10 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 The pack is dying, less than 8 now with me doing it all. In a few years my boys will be out of cubs and no decent troop to go to. My other son's troop will not work. A scout there choked one of the boys and the scoutmaster said that since there is nothing in the bylaws nothing could be done to displine the kid...They dont see it as a problem and dont want to change anything. The new troop would be boy led with fewer than 10 scouts. I dont see any parental help except for signing the paperwork so I'd be doing all of the work as well. 10 years ago there was a troop here but politics ran it into the ground. The troop trailer and equipment is all missing, a fiasco in itself. So the troop would be from scratch. What does the forum say if only one choice cubs or scouts? Link to post Share on other sites
Lisabob 13 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I can't say I speak for everyone, but it seems worth it to think outside the lines you've drawn. For example: is the current SM necessarily going to be SM forever? Just because THAT SM felt it was ok for a boy to choke somebody doesn't mean EVERY OTHER SM in that troop would feel the same. Are there other towns with better options within driving distance? Technically speaking, you cannot have a functional troop with only one adult - two deep leadership on outings, 3 committee members on boards of review, etc. Practically speaking, you'd be crazy to try to shoulder all of the work of a troop (or pack) by yourself, anyway, unless you want to live and breath all scouting, only scouting, all the time. And even if you're ok with that prospect: Part of the point of boy scouting is to help boys develop more independence, so having Mom or Dad as the only leader all the time means you can't do much with the "adult association" method, either. So if you're contemplating a situation where you'd be the only adult actually doing anything for more than the first couple of months, I think it would be a bust. Time to look for more options. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Not sure if I understand your question. It is my opinion that a troop has a tough time existing with out a Pack. It is really tough to recruit 6th graders who have no experience into scouting. I don't care what Kudu says. With that said......If I had to chose it would be the Troop over the Pack..... I really dislike the repeating cub program, the crafts. Honestly how many times can you do the same program over and over again....... Your not going to take a cub canoeing, backpacking, rapelling, philmont, Jambo, caving or anything else really fun for the Man scout in me...... Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I agree with Lisabob.. We traveled 30 minutes one way for the troop my son landed in.. Even if an hour fo a good troop, that driving time is still less then what you would do being a one man show.. That said, if you did find enough help to run one or the other, I say troop also for a few reasons.. First is what Basement said.. Second is it is easier for you to run if some of the workload is placed on the boys, with cubbies you organize it all.. Third you go with your kid. Not much purpose is spending mega hours running a cub pack that your son is not even part of. He will grow up, and you will miss it.. Link to post Share on other sites
GKlose 24 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 One of my regrets is that when my older son's first pack (very small, "one man show") was in trouble, that I didn't do more to save it. We moved to another pack, didn't find it suitable, and then moved to another, and it was worse. But by that time, it didn't make sense to switch (again). Knowing that regret, when he chose a troop that started to have issues, I worked with the adult leadership to rebuild the troop. All the while, I lament that first pack. Should have done more. Guy Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Good troops are a matter of opinion as well. Adult lead and planned, Webelos 3 Boy Lead and planned Patrol Based Troop Based Indoor Outdoor Camping Non Camping Advancement based, Eagle Mill Social The boy needs to decide the right fit and where his interest lay. There is no right or wrong irregardless what your told here. Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Generally speaking, a troop without a pack to feed it will be failing before long --- a few years. Generally speaking, you can grow a pack from a Tiger Cub Den into a whole program. That's what I've been doing over the past nearly five years. Have a good Webelos Den Leader and Webelos Den, and you can grow yourself a new troop over a period of years as well. So I'd save/start the cub pack, with the expectation that a troop would grow out of that when it was needed. Of course, most adults find the troop program more interesting, which is why it's common to find adults staying on a troop leaders after their sons age out of the program, while that is a lot rarer among Cub Packs. But Cub Packs are the seed from which most troops grow and are sustained. That's why I'm a Cub Scout unit leader --- to grow more Boy Scouts. As a DE once told me, "You can't have a youth program without YOUTH!"(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer) Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle69 46 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Seattle Pioneer, You hit the nail on the head! 6 years ago I closed down a Troop with 43 years continuous re-charters because i ran out of kids. In the 28 years I was SM the Pack was an on again/off again affair. Two years before we shut it down the Cubmaster quit at the end of August. Granted there wasn't many left he quit, but that left me with no one coming up. Now the Charter Partner is telling me that they want the space where the Troop gear is stored. If I have to get rid of all the gear then we will never have Scouting at our church again because the expense of re-outfitting a troop would be so high. To have to go out and buy tents, stoves, lanterns, cooking gear, etc, would run into several thousand dollars. A Troop without a Pack to feed it is doomed Link to post Share on other sites
mdlscouting 10 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 How long until your sons are out of the Pack? You said a few years, but that's a wide range. If your youngest is a Webelos Scout, that's one thing.. If he's a wolf, that's entirely different. I think it's important that you make sure all your kids have a way to participate in scouting, but you can't run a pack and a troop singlehandedly.(This message has been edited by wahooker) Link to post Share on other sites
JMHawkins 15 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 If you have to focus your energy on one and only one program, then it's Troop no question. Cub Scouts is fun, nice, good for the kids, but there are other places where they can find those things at that age. A functional troop however is one of the very few opportunities for teenage boys to find the challenges and experiences they need to develop into good men. Perhaps a feeder pack is important for the long-term health of a Troop, perhaps not. But either way, for your sons, the Troop is important and you should focus on that if it needs your help (whether it's an existing troop or a new one). Other fathers will need to step up for the cub scout program. Recruiting them is a good goal, but like others have said, you can't do everything yourself. You will need to choose where your energy goes. My main advice would be to figure out where you can find the most functional adult contribution. That might be the existing troop with the clueless SM. I would suspect that if the choking story is as you described* then you aren't the only adult concerned about it, and maybe you can help that Troop fix itself. Maybe it's another troop a little farther away as other's have suggested. Maybe it is a group of adults who will help get a new troop started. You will need a team though, you can't do it all by yourself. At the very least you'll need a functional committee, especially if you are starting with all young scouts. If there isn't an existing team for you to join, then you'll need to recruit your team. Part of your team might be some folks to help rescue the Pack. * I would strongly advise you to first - if you haven't already - double and triple check on the details of that story. Most adults are really not as idiotic as the SM in your story comes across, so there's a good chance the story is garbled. On the other hand, some people are that clueless. I'd give the SM enough of the benefit of the doubt to carefully verify the story if you haven't already. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey H 25 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 If you can do only one, stay with the Cub Pack since it sounds like you have a few more years there. Your Pack is basically the size of a Den so I would focus on recruiting which is much easier at the Cub level than the Boy Scout level. Boys at that age group deserve a great cub program. Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Hello Eagle 69, As a District Membership Chair, I have seen a failed pack lead to a failed troop. Two Fer The Price Of One, and not in a way we would like to see! Smart troops will have a volunteer who keeps an eye on their pack, maintaini9ng good relations, coordinating programs where possible and generally being supportive and looking for weaknesses, especially in recruiting. I just attended a Troop Committee meeting for the troop that boys from my pack should be going to. I encouraged the troop to choose a unit leader to be the Pack Unit Commissioner, and generally to start getting involved and supporting the pack. We made a start. The SM is going to call the Webelos Den Leader and invite the Webelos on a wilderness day hike with the Troop July 14th and to attend the Washington State Scout Jamboree in August along with the Troop. We'll have to see if some of that happens. In my experience, troops take packs for granted when they should be taking care to help care for the welfare of Cub Packs. Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hello No name, I'd rather talk about how to keep the pack going rather than shutting it down. What kind of program do you have? Where are your eight Scouts in the program? What kind of recruiting have you been doing lately? Has your District Executive been of assistance with recruiting? The pack I'm involved with was down to a single boy five years ago this fall. At present we have fourteen Cub Scouts, a quality program and pretty good leadership. Link to post Share on other sites
noname 10 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 As the original poster I thank each and everyones response. There are 5 troops within 45 minutes, I plan on taking the 3 Webeloes(1 & 2) to visit this fall. My sons troop is dying as well. Besides the displine issues they had 2 cubs join. I explained 2 kids a year in a troop of 12(with 16 registered adults) will not last but they have no problem with it. Tent camp 1 time this year, 3 overniters cancelled this year sofar(no plan b)Recruiting?Our school is small with 60 being the average grade size. I am thankful for my boys pack we do have and the mothers help. I say mothers cause the dads dont want to do anything. Fact not my 2 cents but thats for another time. We had a fishing derby where 3500 fliers were handed out and 6 kids were there last week. Ive asked council for guidance for finding a troop to adopt us but never heard back. For me I'm still leaning toward a scout troop, what made more of a difference for us Cubs or Boy scouts??? Maybe anther topic right there-mmm... Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Six kids are six kids. Add them to the eight you have and you have 14. new families can be started off right with the expectation that they will participate in and help organize pack activities. The fishing derby sounds like a fine activity --- generally boys love fishing. Can you explain how you organized that? Link to post Share on other sites
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