fred8033 1593 Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Here's a great analogy. ... WHAT IF ... Boy scout recruitment is mimic'ed in cub recruitment. Tiger cubs get fliers from three or four packs. Visit multiple packs and choose the one that best fits them and their family. Somehow it's a good idea for Boy Scouts. Why not Cub Scouts? ... REALITY ... A very quick way to get cub leaders upset is for another pack to flier their associated elementary school. It's assumed that students an elementary school will go into a certain pack. They are of course welcome into any pack and are welcome to switch at any time. ... BUT ... it is assumed they go into that pack. Why do people get upset? Because it creates confusion AND leaders feel cheated after investing so much time in the relationship. My main pack (CC for that one pack, COR for two packs) has worked hard with the school. Volunteering in many ways. Great relationship with the principal. We have 30% to 35% of the boys in the school in the pack. In two grades, we have 50% of the boys. We have invested in the relationship. We are grateful that it's assumed kids at the school will join our pack. If other packs randomly started flyering our school, it would frustrate us .. big time. It would create confusion and create a feeling that it's not fair to just jump in after all the time has been invested. Maybe the youth would have a better experience with the other unit. Maybe not. But I doubt most parents would be able to predict it in advance. And there's something to be said for building and respecting relationships. .... If we don't do it at the cub level, why the boy scout level? ... REALITY ... More packs I know have problems then troops. Getting into the right pack is important. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Cub recruiting and the school turfs... I think ya hit it fred...... The troops with tons of gear have an advantage...... Link to post Share on other sites
dkurtenbach 348 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I remember my District Commissioner some eleven years or so ago emphasizing that "There is no such thing as a 'Feeder Pack'!" But I don't know where this "Webelos Scouts should go troop shopping" notion came from. Maybe a misinterpretation of the Arrow of Light troop visit requirement. Wherever it came from, it is NOT what BSA teaches about the Webelos to Boy Scout transition. Take a look at the transition materials on the National web site, http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/improvedwebelostransition.aspx. The message is clear: "The key factor to improved Webelos transition is the ongoing working relationship of the leaders of a Cub Scout pack and a Boy Scout troop. Ideally a community organization would have both a pack and a troop with leaders who work together to help move Webelos Scouts into a Boy Scout troop the same way schools move students from elementary school to middle school." Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach) Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I now understand why so many folks get wound up with crossover.... The process is a recipe for losing scouts....Plumb dumb. I cannot believe folks haven't figured it out...... Troops Trashing each other......shaking my head. Our organization is so seamless that the parents are a bit confused why they need to fill out a new application when the boys crossover. Link to post Share on other sites
Brewmeister 132 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 In the three years I was a den leader we never once saw the SM or anyone from our sister troop. Boys just went there, or dropped out. Who knows, never saw them again. But no one shopped around. When my son chose a different troop (not at my prompting), the SM of our sister troop wasn't too happy. Oh well. My experience is that many troops just expect the scouts to come from Cubs and do little outreach. There are of course exceptions. And then, when it doesn't work, it is Cub Scoutings fault! By the way, what ever happened to recruiting new scouts into Boy Scouts? Seemed to me there's someone on these boards who always advocates that... Link to post Share on other sites
lrsap 10 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 "If a troop is dysfunctional or not healthy, sure go ahead and switch. If ya don't get along with the leaders, go ahead and switch. Fine. But why not change earlier? In a continual scouting experience, change when ya realize you don't like the situation. Why wait for the magical Webelos transition? It's a transition that should be eliminated." Fred, let me make sure I am reading this correctly. If my son is a Bear in a great pack he loves, but the CO also has a horrible troop that there is no way I would want him to join, he has to find another pack? I hope I'm missing your point. We do agree completely on other points though. My son was a CS with a pack that also has a troop he did not join. We actually formed a new troop of which I am the SM. I was the ADL of the Webelos and a very good friend of mine remained as DL when his son was in. I told him as much as I would love to, I can't be his ADL anymore because it would be unethical for me to be there as any kind of influence on the boys to join a troop other than the one offered by the CO. If someone wants to seek me out and talk, I will not turn them away. But to represent a different unit on the grounds of another is just wrong. If I ever do stop by I still have a pack t-shirt I can throw on. Link to post Share on other sites
dkurtenbach 348 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Unfortunately, in a "troop shopping" environment in an area where there are multiple packs and troops, it isn't cost-effective for a troop to do outreach to just one pack. We were "burned" more than once by Webelos dens that asked us to do campouts, help with advancement, and otherwise invest a lot of time and resources to work with them -- and then went "shopping" and decided to join another troop. What I see more and more is district-wide outreach by troops through special events, advancement workshops, etc. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Several years ago when I was a CM our pack always recruited at our local school. We had the school to ourselves and almost every boy that went into Cubs from that school came to us. All the schools in our district had a similar arrangement, one pack to one school. Then one year our DE decided that boys should shop around for the pack that best fit them. It was decided that packs would recruit from several schools each year, all packs on the same night for each school. End result, more nights spent recruiting for the leaders who weren't too happy about that. But the worst part was that time after time parents with their sons would come in, talk to the different pack leaders and leave not being able to make up their minds. They just didn't have enough information to make a decision and never joined for fear of making the wrong decision. Our numbers we steady but many packs lost membership. Our district has lost almost half of the total units it had from 10 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites
DLChris71 10 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Dan wrote: "...We were "burned" more than once by Webelos dens that asked us to do campouts, help with advancement, and otherwise invest a lot of time and resources to work with them -- and then went "shopping" and decided to join another troop." Can you quantify how much time and resources your troop spent on Webelos? And also if you spent time and resources that were wasted, what would your troop used those instead if not the opportunity to work with Webelos? Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 In the end it doesn't matter how much time and effort a troop puts into its relationship with a pack. What matters is where the most popular kid in the den is going or where the CM wants the kids to go. But sometimes the unpopular kid will choose a troop and that insures the rest will go elsewhere. Just being cynical but I have seen this happen over the years. Link to post Share on other sites
Brewmeister 132 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Wasted resources working with Webelos who don't join the troop? Recruiting is a large endeavor for our pack. We recruit in spring. We recruit in fall. We do open houses, bring a friend days, and hold special recurring activities. We don't get all the boys who show up. One time we only got one out of a dozen. I'm not looking to pick a fight here but the attitude I see in the real world and here is that Cub Scouts does the recruiting, and Boy Scouts are supposed to be the beneficiaries of 5 years worth of preparation. That's just how it comes off to me. If not, why is there not more of a discussion about how to successfully recruit new 6th graders?(This message has been edited by Brewmeister) Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4344 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I'm feeling Fred's pain. We're just getting one or two boys because our CO's pack is feeding another troop. But none of our boys are members of the CO, so maybe they are feeling a little pain too. Maybe if we made a public display of boys sing for stuff they lost, we would attract those Webelos. Link to post Share on other sites
fred8033 1593 Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 "What matters is where the most popular kid in the den is going or where the CM wants the kids to go. " - So so true. .... Never seeing SM of associated troop until recruitment ... seen that too. That's one reason why I think pack and troop committees should work together. One committee to oversee a scouting program for the charter org. Just an opinion on this one. Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 how many neckers and books have you handed boys and parents who verbally committed to the troop and then they simply quit or went else where. Link to post Share on other sites
fred8033 1593 Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 "I'm feeling Fred's pain. We're just getting one or two boys because our CO's pack is feeding another troop. " ... I think that's very common. It's tough being a new cub leader. They feel overwhelmved and develop an attitude that the troop doesn't support them enough. Only later to find out the troop they go into doesn't support their aligned pack either. "But none of our boys are members of the CO, so maybe they are feeling a little pain too." - very common. Link to post Share on other sites
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