Profit for non profit organization-Camporee

[namu35950 10]

I was just at out fall camporee, and the charge for the camporee was $10, at roundtable they said the charge would be for ammo, no problem. I show up at camporee, and ask what would the leaders charge be for the camporee, leaders where not shooting so I thought we would not have to share in the cost of ammo. DE said still the same. No offense to anyone, but scouting is expensive enough, so the DE pulled me aside and basicly said he had to show a profit for camporee. Profit??? I have no problem paying for something that I am doing, use of material, camp site. But if BSA is a non profit, than why do they have to show a profit? I totally understand covering cost, but there was about 400 boys, if you just make a $1 off each boy, that is $400 profit, where does that money go?? Make things worse, we had no range master at camporee, we did get a refund of $5 per person. but still $5 x 400=$2000. does it take $2000 to run a BSA camp for 2 days when they are not including food? I have several boys from low income families, and one of the boys that weekend said it was hard to get the $10 to come to camporee, so I have a problem when BSA is over charging for activities. ok while I am on the soap box, charging leaders, have maybe its just me, but as a volumteer, I give my time to scouting and some of my money, but charging leaders to come and watch over the boys and lead them, maybe thats why we are having trouble getting leaders. please give you thoughts and explain how a non profit is looking for a profit

Thanks

[Basementdweller 608]

this really sound familiar.....

 

 

I wonder if this is a national directive?????

[KC9DDI 11]

I can try to address a least a few of your concerns.

 

First, I think you might be misunderstanding the legal definition of a non-profit organization, like your council. Basically, for an organization to be legally classified as "non-profit," the organization can't pay out any profit at the end of the fiscal year to its owners or shareholders. Any excess funds must be re-invested into the organization (such as into equipment, facilities, and yes, professionals salaries.) It does NOT mean that each individual event, like a camporee, can't do more than break even financially. So yes, it's typically for events like camporees, some training events, day camps and summer camps to net the council a bit of money when all is said and done. I think $1-$1.50 per boy "profit" for the council is pretty standard for an event like this.

 

does it take $2000 to run a BSA camp for 2 days when they are not including food?

 

Have you ever tried to run a camp for 400 scouts for $2000 dollars? It sounds like a lot of money, until you need to purchase program supplies, first aid supplies, rent port-a-potties and other equipment, prepare the facility for use, etc. Even little things like trash bags, batteries for walkie talkies, rope, tent stakes, etc start to add up. I'd be very impressed with any district that puts on a quality program for 400 scouts, plus however many adults, for $2000. And that $1/boy that goes to council? Well, by the time you pay the camp ranger (assuming this was held on council property), pay for tractor fuel to prepare the facility, pay for utilities and maintenance on the buildings and improved structures used during the event, pay for maintenance and eventual replacement of things like rain flies and other program material... the council ends up making a negligible amount of "profit" when all is said and done.

 

I personally don't think that $5 for a weekend of program is overcharging. In fact, that's on the lower end, based on events that I've been involved with. As far as low income families go, often units and councils can work together to subsidize or waive fees, based on individual circumstances. That might be something to speak with your DE and UC about.

 

Regarding charging leaders, there's many different ways to handle that. My personal opinion is to offer the leaders a discounted rate as compared to the youth, given that the leaders won't be participating in the program to the same extent that the kids will be. But I also think there's some validity to just charging the same fee per person. It depends on the particular venue. I guess I would hope that if $5 were the difference between gaining and losing a qualified adult leader, the powers that be could figure out how to keep the leader.

 

Without having been at the particular event you're talking about, or knowing more about it, I can't speculate as to whether you got your money's worth for the weekend. But, just based on my own experience in organizing and planning events at a district and council level, I'm not seeing anything too outrageous in your story.

 

[Eagle92 110]

Namu,

 

I understand your concerns. KC gives a good explanation, and I can elaborate some more.

 

1) Some events lose money either by not charging a fee, or charging a low fee to get participants to attend, but doesn't cover the full cost of the event, or something unexpected occurs. I'm thinking of some training events that fall into this category. But sometimes program events go over budget too, and other program events have to help make up the overall difference. So those events that do make a "profit" goes towards those that don't to balance the overall spreadsheet.

 

3) Not only do supplies used at the event count, but also any mailings, printing costs, etc for camporee books, etc. Trust me printing can get expensive.

 

4) If your event was at a council property, you have to figure that into the "profit." Trust me operating a camp is not cheap with ranger, equipment, maintenance, etc that is done year round, not just when the camp is in use. Even with a property usage fee, it really doesn't cover the full cost of year round operations. So some of the "profits" goes towards that.

 

5) Emergency funds. Trust me I plan on 5-10% for emergencies when I do event budgets, and something always comes up at the last minute. But if those funds are not used, those are considered "profit" in my neck of the woods.

 

 

 

[dg98adams 18]

"Make things worse, we had no range master at camporee"

 

For a Boy Scout shooting range you NEED 2 people, a NRA Range Safety Officer (RSO) and a NRA Rifle instructor... and they CANNOT be the same person. 400 Scouts... that would have been a lot for a 2-day event for even 2 (volunteer Range Scouters) . $5 per person for ammo & use of range (includes .22 rifles) is what my council charges.

 

I just completed NRA RSO and NRA Rifle Instructor courses and hope to help the Shooting Sports at camp.

 

 

[namu35950 10]

KC and Eagle thanks for the replies. I am not totally in the dark when it comes to "breaking even" at events. This was at a council property, and actually, they have put a lot of money and work into the camp in the last couple of years. And yes $5 is cheap for a weekend of camping and fun. Maybe it was just the whole weekend that put me on the soap box. Here is a short list of some of the problems we ran into.

1. sign ups: suppose to start at 6pm, arrived at 6:30pm no one around, actually sign ups didnt start until 8pm

2. Shotgun and rifle shooting canceled, no range master, this was a big selling point for alot of my scouts.

3. GEO caching canceled. something to do with problems with GPS

4. Knot tying closed when my troop was scheduled to take part.

5. No patches for the weekend, I am still trying to get patches from spring camporee

6. Closing firering, no awards where given out to the troops. I saw awards but none were pasted out. Instead a beading for Woodbadge was given.

 

So with canceling almost half of activities and no back up plan for the boys, they got bored fast.

 

As far as money, popcorn sales, friends of scouting, corporate donations, batterie sales, all this money goes into council for fixing, updating camp sites, salaries. etc. It just seems that my DE is more concerned with raising money than putting on a quaility program. I have talked to other SM in my area and the feeling is the same. One county in our district has 2 packs for 3 troops. Its not hard to see that in a few years that the troops will be hurting for boys if not folding. I would think that this would be a more important issue than money.

 

Sorry to get off on the wrong track but thanks for the info

[sawdustr 10]

The DE is not "in charge" of program, or shouldn't be - that should be up to the volunteers who should plan the camporee. In my experience, the DE is "more concerned" about fund raising and, IMO, should be.

 

When your DE steps in to the program area, it is easy for the money to distract them and you, as a volunteer, can easily get frustrated. Until I worked with several DEs on a council-wide event, I had mistakenly believed that they were there for program (like I was). I learned my lesson on that one.

 

I believe the district volunteers should take the lead for district events. Use the DE as a resource. This can help avoid the problems that arise when "being on the same team but with varying goals" occurs.

[Stosh 3452]

It's a capitalistic market. If a troop thinks their dollars are better spent on something other than a camporee, then in order to be thrifty, they need to pursue the alternatives.

 

It's always good to remember that the cost of admission to an event does not include a breakdown on how that money is going to be spent. The $10 spent is the cost of getting into the event. If one thinks that's too much, don't go. If I spend $10 on a movie ticket and I don't like the movie, too bad, I don't get a refund. That's the price one pays to find out. If the sequel comes out and it is going to cost me $10 to find out if they have improved since the first movie, I have a choice to make.

 

Camporees are put on by volunteers for the boys. If the market won't support the $10 entrance fee, people are going to find alternative activities out there and that's fine. $10 fee for a camporee should get the boys on-site. If food is provided, great, but don't expect free lunch. If a patch is given, fine, but if not, that's okay too.

 

Too often we rely on previous traditions to create assumptions that really aren't there. Patches are nice, but not mandatory for all scout events. A meal would be nice, but not necessary. When one pays $10 to go. That's as far as one can assume. The $10 is an entrance fee that allows me to participate. For me to judge how that money is to be spent is no different than me buying $10 worth of groceries at the food-mart and then assuming I have the right to dictate to the owner how he is to appropriate his expenses. Or for those with the non-profit persuasion, making a $10 contribution to the plate on Sunday morning and then assuming they have the right to say how that money is to be spent.

 

I don't know anywhere other than scouting where such assumptions are tolerated.

 

Stosh

[Scoutfish 16]

Our last camporee ( begining of Oct) was sponsored by our Coast District.

Open to the whole council, on council property. We had around 750 attendees.

 

Cost was also $10.00

 

This was for materials and equipment, covered the cost of the patches and staff food. This also covered all the paper uysed for sign ups, med forms, registration forms, maps, agendas, iteneraries( isn't thst just fancy for agendas? ) programs that were passed around and the advertising fliers.

 

Thing is, even though council didn't run the event, the sponsoring district had to pay council for use of the facilities. THis did cover the cost of maintainance, electricity, the ems crew on standby, the ranger, and the trash cleanup ( camp dumpsters being dumped by local sanitation company).

 

At the followup meeting, the Coastal District was crossing it's collective fingers and hoping they would break even.

 

Now, council may have made a slight profit from us using the council camp, but if they did, I bet it wouldn't have been enough to buy a cup of coffee for every paid employee at the scout office.

 

As far as patches go, no you don't have to have them, but you also don't have to take pictures either!

[BS-87 30]

Our DE pulled the Event director for the most recent Camporee aside and asked him when he wanted to come turn in his receipts for the weekend. When the Camporee director said he'd just donate it so the District could show it made money on the event he got quite the lecture about how District programs should be self-sustaining and in the black, but not lucrative. Never quite heard that before...

[Eagle92 110]

Namu,

 

Best thing I can offer is talk to your scouts and see what they think. They may have liked it, or they may say skip it next year.

 

My district's camporee was this past weekend. I didn't attend, but knew that b/c of some challenges it would not be like a normal camporee; instead it was turned into a MB weekend with 2 MBs being offered. Well 1 troop decided not to go at all. Feeling was that they get enough MB classes at summer camp, and want to have fun(I am going to spin off on that one) and not have to deal with more classes. I talked to 2 scouts from another troop, and they said camporee was boring b/c it was more MB classes, even though the MBs were ones not normally offered. They may not go back next year if they do MBs again.

 

But here is the funny thing. At RT last nite when asked about reactions to the different format, one of the SMs said his scouts loved the fact that it was MBs and they want it like that next year. I ahd to comment that one troop did not go at all b/c of the MB format, and another troop didn't find it fun.

[FScouter 24]

Not submitting receipts for event expenses and considering them a donation is a magnanimous thing to do, but it has a downside. The P&L for that event will show a minimum of expense and the next guy to run the event will be fooled into thinking it can be run on a shoestring. Worse, the district committee may set an expense budget for the next event based on the paid expenses of the prior event.

 

It is much better to document all expenses and turn in all receipts and get reimbursement, and at the same time make a cash donation towards the event. Then the event expenses will be true, and the event income will show that a donation was made. The bottom line will be the same. The donor can claim a tax deduction as well.

[Eagle92 110]

I didn't catch the "donations" that FScouter caught, But I agree 110% with him. All receipts, even if a donation, should be turned in becasue it does affect budgeting. I would also add do inventories of reusable supplies, i.e. rope, fire pans, etc.

 

When I was day camp PD 2 years ago, I had no budget from previous years to work with. CD could not tell me what we had, what supplies she gets donated (other than the hay bales), inventories, etc. Ended up buying a lot of stuff to "be prepared" that I found out was not needed the day before camp started. Also found out stuff that was needed, and I did not know about or consider. Long story short: we went overbudget that year.

 

This past summer, I used the budget from the previous year and was about $7 under budget. Would have been larger, and I would have gotten supplies for 2012, but the CD bought and used stuff prior camp starting, despite me telling her I have all the supplies already and copies of the PW she was printing.

[Eagle92 110]

Forgot to add, on my budgets, we have a separate budget catagory for donations, so we know exactly how much the donations would have cost us. that way if we cannot get the donation the next year, we have an idea of how much to plan for.

[boomerscout 35]

The DE may have been in a hurry, and used the word "profit" when he shouldn't have, although non-profits can do fundraising.

What he should have said is that when the final accounting was done, he was charged with being in the black and not in the red.

If 400 boys say they are going to show, and 400 boys actually do attend, then the fee setting is simpler. If 400 say they are going to show, and 450 show up, that may lead to problems. So, err on the side of caution is usually done, and you budget for "extra".

It seems this weekend was very poorly planned and run. That is what you are really peeved about, and I certainly would be, too.