robertwilliams 10 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 We are a pack in need of a chartered organization. We have one right now that does little more than sign paperwork, and they aren't particularly good at that. In the past we've had our own CO - "Parents of such-and-such school"; I'm not sure why we stopped doing that and went with another organization. Now, due to our frustration with our current CO, we are considering going back to that. We've even discussed starting a small non-profit corporation that could take tax-deductible donations, own the property, etc. Another option is to see if the local Masonic lodge would charter us, or look for a church or Lions Club or something. I know we aren't really doing this right, but that's the situation we're in. I'd like to have a CO that really owns and helps the pack, and have a good relationship of mutual support. I just don't know how to get there from here. I'm hesitant to give our pack to the Masonic lodge or any other outside organization. Even though there's probably little chance things would go wrong, there's always the possibility it could backfire on us. I imagine they would just support us and not meddle. But still it's an unknown. I have similar concerns about forming an organization to carry our charter - who do we put in charge of that organization? I'd be concerned about politics and conflicts of interest there (e.g., if the COR is the spouse of the CM or the CC then there could be problems down the road - those sorts of things). Our pack has been very low-drama with no politics so far and I'd like to keep it that way. Any experience or advice you can offer? Link to post Share on other sites
AlFansome 10 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Random thoughts: - A very bad idea to do a "parents of" or other made up group to charter the pack. How would that provide you with a CO that's helpful? The folks in the CO are the same as the folks on the committee and other parents. How does that help you get more support? Also, while things are OK now, just wait until politics, a strong-headed parent, or some big issue comes up. - Cost: forming your own 501©(3) org costs $$$. $850 just to the IRS for certification not to mention state fees, annual reporting costs, drawing up the initial paperwork. Why bother without much gain? - Are there any Boy Scout troops in your area? Doesn't sound like you pack has a sister troop. Maybe using the same CO as a troop would be the way to go. Also, it's perfectly fine for a CO to sponsor more than one pack. - Finally, on one hand, you say that you want support and a CO that really owns the pack, and other the other hand, you don't want a CO to meddle nor to "give" you pack to an outside organization. Doesn't seem to me that you can have it both ways....either you get support and give up a bit of control, or you don't. Link to post Share on other sites
robertwilliams 10 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 >> Maybe using the same CO as a troop would be the way to go. We are fortunate to have 2 good troops in our town, but neither one is a sister troop to us. I am not sure if any of the COs in our area function the way I think they are supposed to; I will talk to our DE and find out. >> you want support and a CO that really owns the pack, and other the other hand, you don't want a CO to meddle nor to "give" you pack to an outside organization. I want a good CO that works well with the pack. I am nervous about the risk of putting the pack under an organization that I (and most of the pack leadership) don't really know. Our pack is doing well as far as membership and the program and I'm just afraid that will get messed up. Like I said, I doubt there would be any problems, but I am just cautious about our Scouting program. I just want it to be a net benefit for our boys. By the way, it's not the fact that it's the Masons that bothers me; I'd have the same discomfort with any church or other organization that wasn't already sponsoring an effective unit, or that the pack leadership didn't have deep ties with. I guess I could always just join the Masonic lodge. :-) (This message has been edited by robertwilliams) Link to post Share on other sites
WAKWIB 107 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Just for kicks, I went to the BeAScout.org site, typed in my zip code and saw a list of 20 Packs. About 7 of these were chartered to a "Friends of..." or "Parents of..." type organization. I was a bit surprised, really. I guess it is more of a trend than I thought. For my two-cents, I think I would prefer a more stable, traditional type of CO. Also a CO that is willing to charter both a Pack and Troop as this should provide good program continuity for the benefit of the youth served. Link to post Share on other sites
fred8033 1589 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I've seen several charter orgs over the years. None are actively involved in their units. The best is good at offering space, storage and a smile. We do service projects for them once or twice a year. Another only lets us in the building if they have a janitor there to secure the building (not entirely unreasonable). Another bounced our meeting room time for an inside church mens group with higher priority. That unit got chartered through their school PTO, essentially no different than a "friends of" charter. Suggestion - Try your local VFW, AFL, Knights of Columbus, Kiwanis, Optimists and such. All those groups specialize with citizenship and very actively support scouts. If no one else, I'm sure a KofC would charter you and have some cool special service opportunities (special olympics, ...). Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Just an FYI, because I do not see it mentioned.. When leaving a CO, you need to realize they own your unit.. You have to present them with something to sign (Which they may or may not) stating they are willing to release the money, equipment and unit number. Just be aware, that you may need to relinquish all that over to your CO if they do not choose to release it.. Or they may choose which parts they want and which they will let you keep. But, you can not just sneak off and not tell them that they had a right to keep this stuff. (Maybe you can slip them paperwork, and hope they sign it without reading it, but that isn't very scout-like.) Link to post Share on other sites
ScoutNut 147 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Just a reminder, a Charter Organization (CO) OWNS it's BSA units. It is not "your" Pack, it is your CO's Pack. Ideally, a CO starts a BSA unit as a service to it's own youth. Have you considered working at repairing the relationship between the Pack and it's CO? That might be easier than finding a new one. Moose is correct. If your CO decides that they are not willing to give up the charter on their Pack they do not have to. The members of the Pack are free to join any other BSA Pack they wish, but your CO can hold on to the Pack's charter, number, money, and equipment, with the understanding they will either go on with whatever families are left in the current Pack, or start over at some later date. If you decide to look for a new CO, I suggest checking out churches, and organizations, that members of the Pack already belong to. The possibility of bad politics, conflicts of interest, and just plain bad operation of the unit is a possibility now, and in the future, no matter what organization you have as the Pack's CO. People are not perfect. I would contact your District Executive (DE), and your Unit Commissioner (UC), or District Commissioner (DC), to help the Pack thru this mess. Link to post Share on other sites
robertwilliams 10 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 >> The best is good at offering space, storage and a smile. We do service projects for them once or twice a year. The school where most of our boys attend lets us meet there and we do some service projects for them. So at least we do have some support. >> Try your local VFW, AFL, Knights of Columbus, Kiwanis, Optimists and such. Thanks; I will keep these in mind. >> you may need to relinquish all that over to your CO if they do not choose to release it. That's a good point moose, but I don't think that will happen; we've only been chartered with them for a year or so and I don't think they want us. I'm pretty sure they just signed the paperwork as a favor to one of their members (it's a church if I didn't mention that) who is in Scouting in another unit. Since we raise our own money I doubt they would try to keep it, and we don't have any equipment. This is an argument IMO in favor of a "friends of" organization. Link to post Share on other sites
robertwilliams 10 Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Scoutnut, >> Ideally, a CO starts a BSA unit as a service to it's own youth. I am not sure who originally started our pack - it's a few decades old. Like I said, I know we're doing this wrong :-) >> Have you considered working at repairing the relationship between the Pack and it's CO? There's no real relationship there - it was always just a "friends of" kind of organization until the last couple of years. But I will discuss this possibility with our CM, as she has the closest relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 How many threads have we worked through where the IH or COR is a toxic person? In the BSA chartering system, the IH and COR are the powerbrokers. If they have a personal spat with person X, one call of theirs to the Scout office and that person isn't a member any longer. No, you cannot vote them out ... Their authority is akin to an Kung of spades in the game of spades ... The only higher authority is the Council SE himself. I am firmly convinced friends of partners are a bad idea. Link to post Share on other sites
moosetracker 132 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 You can let them know you wish to move the pack, and if they were really as detached as you say, and thinking they were doing you the favor.. But are having doubts about it themselves, then you can most certainly leave on good terms, and if they sign the paper releasing to your new CO (not you, be that a newly formed Friends of.. or a real CO) the unit, then it is free and clear... It may just be as RW stated, they really don't see themselves as the owners or having any real claim to the unit, and not wanting to start-up or run anything on their own.. It is just that you may be surprised to find they have some sort of attachment to something.. Or if you have squirelled away a wad of cash (like the one unit with 22 thousand and their CO went bankrupt..).. They may see those $$ before their eyes. Link to post Share on other sites
CalicoPenn 729 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I'm really confused - you say you have frustrations with your CO without expounding on the frustrations other than to say you want a CO that really owns and helps the pack, then you say your pack is doing really well with the program and membership and want a CO that won't interfere with that success. It seems to me you have a CO that isn't interefering with your pack and that you've got a successful pack raising it's own money. If you're running a good program, presumably you have a place to meet. So what, pray tell, are the issues with the CO? The only hint we have is they don't do well with the paperwork. What does that mean? There is only one piece of paper they have to sign every year, the Charter - are they late with it? If so, that's an issue the DE can help you with. I'm not a fan of "Friends Of" charters - they tend to last only long enough for the founder's kids to earn Eagle, and most aren't properly organized (The BSA is very good at explaining their requirments - what they are very bad at is explaining government legal requirements - some of which were touched on already - you will need to register with the IRS, likely as a 501c3, you will need to file incorporation paperwork with the State to register as a charity so you can raise funds, you will need to file annual tax returns with the IRS and your state and you will need to file annual incorporation reports with your State's Secretary of State. All that administrative work you do for the Pack now? Double the time - and that's what you'll be doing for a "Friends of" organization. Based on everything you've mentioned so far, though, I just don't see any reason to be hopping charters again this year. You've got the autonomy you're wanting, you've got a chartering organization to sign the paperwork - what more are you looking for? Unless they're making nosies like they want to drop you, I just wouldn't take the time to either create a "Friends of" organization or find a new CO which you may end up not liking. The grass is always greener, and on the surface, it seems you may have the green grass a lot of other units would love to have. Link to post Share on other sites
Scoutfish 16 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 What was that old saying? : The grass that is greener is greener because of all the poop!" "In the past we've had our own CO - "Parents of such-and-such school"; I'm not sure why we stopped doing that and went with another organization." Probably because issues and problems came up there too. Thing is, with a CO that tied to an existing group, you usually have some sort of long term stability. The COR usually is a long term position by a person who has been in the CO many years, or will be there many years. Even if the COR is not overly active, you have the advantage that he is not biased or as involved as the two sides of whatebver issue you have. So you start a new CO and call it" "CO to Pack X" Who is going to be the COR? Who do you want to put in that position that you trust having the final say during any discussions or arguements? How long will that person be active as COR? AS long as their kid is in it? Longer, or less? Since this is going to be a "freinds of" type CO, then the COR will most likely be the parent of at least one boy, if not 2 oer 3 boys. What if the issue is between a slacker leader in Den 1 , and 2 o3 other dens.. What if the COR's son is in Den 1 ? Is he able to look beyond his son and son's den leader without any bias? And if he does...is everybody going to be able to follow the decidion or automatically think it's biased towards his son's DL( even if it isn't)? Where will the CO be in 5 yeras? I ask because at that point, even a current Tiger Scouts volunteer mom or dad will be out of the pack by then. Just alot to think about. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Yah, allow me to join in da skepticism about "Friends of" Chartering Organizations. These are often short-term things, and they work until they don't. Most of 'em amount to unincorporated voluntary Associations, which raises some interestin' liability questions dependin' on your state's laws. Simply put, it's within da realm of the possible that all of the "Friends" are liable for da actions and obligations of the pack. Yeh want a competent attorney to be involved in da setup of any such group, and yeh want to be scrupulous about articles and bylaws and such. Beyond that, gettin' 501©(3) status and maintaining it in an all-volunteer organization is just difficult, eh? And expensive. In short, there are just a lot of landmines to the approach. We did see more of these get created when we pulled cub packs out of da public schools or when PTOs dropped their charters, which is why yeh can find a fair number of 'em still around in many councils. But they really should be a temporary solution. I think, robertwilliams, that yeh really have to figure out what yeh want, eh? Most church ministries are organized and run by volunteers, as a part of their service to the church. Aside from being recognized by da church, they don't really "get" much, eh? They're there to give. Whether it's da Ladies Guild or da Men's Club or da Homeless Outreach or da Choir. Why should you be any different? Yeh get recognition, they assume da risk, but the ministry work gets done by volunteers like yourself who care. What more do yeh want? Them to start payin' the Cubmaster a wage? Beavah Link to post Share on other sites
robertwilliams 10 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 >> What more do yeh want? Well I don't really know what I should expect. What would a good CO do for a pack? Link to post Share on other sites
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