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5yearscouter

how would your troop handle a rumor of a bisexual scout?

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I completely agree with Crew21. In fact, he said things much clearer than I could. As a mom, I am very concerned about the environments that I allow my son to be in. Before, ever joining scouts we looked at policys to see if it would expose our children to things we did not want them exposed too. Sexual misconduct being one of them. All I can truly say is as a mother, I am glad the leaders talked with the young man and tried to get to the bottom of the situation.

 

We have heard one side of the story...and the thing that still bothers me is...no personal responsibility!! Yes, I understand that there was said to be bullying at summer camp. I understand that the first statement was made while in anger to stop bullying...and I understand that the young man admitted what, and why he said it..I also saw that he admitted it was a mistake to say it. So, why are we making such an issue about questioning the leaders?? It looks to me like this young man is on the right track of taking responsiblity and yet the adults in the situation are looking for excuses to bad behaviour.

 

I try to teach my children that no matter what happens, YOU do the right thing...that is not always the case, but blaming others for what I decide is NEVER the right choice.

 

As far as the meeting, would it even be thinkable that a meeting between them all had tried to be arranged another time, but had not been successful and the only time was during that meeting? Could it be that the adult leaders had been seeking advice and trying to get answers since June..so as to handle this effectively?

 

It seems like there is much more to the story that has not been told. As far as the daughter of the ASM, I would wonder how much mom actually told her or maybe she overheard some of a conversation mom was having with other leaders?? or surely she would not just try to spread gossip would she?

 

Another point is the Scout oath and Law...from what I have learned it does not matter if others are doing these things to us, but we are to set the example.

 

 

On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

 

A Scout is:

Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,

Friendly, Courteous, Kind,

Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty,

Brave, Clean, Reverent

 

Again, I do not condone bullying but being bullied is NOT an excuse. By making a statement that he was bisexual called is morality into question. I understand that boys will be boys BUT that is not an excuse!!! If we as adults do not set the standard, how will the boys grow into young men of character? As far as all this goes, I would not want this young man in a leadership position, simply because he he does not make the best decisions when placed in difficult positions...

One more time, I will reinterate that we have only heard a lot of supposition and most information was based on reports from teenagers...

 

I did see where someone said I was questioning the "victim". I feel we live in a society that teaches us to be victims. Yes, he was bullied but as we all learn in Scouting...faith in God is a foundation and I believe that we can draw from that inner strength to face anything...Sometimes, we are victims but we need to learn how to handle adversity...because the world will be full of it!!

 

As for my statement about dishonesty, if he is not bisexual, he lied about it...and if he was he has been lying about it...Simple as that!

 

I think there is much more to the story and before we condemn the leaders we should think long and hard about it!!

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Scoutmom - You keep talking about this young man's failure to take responsibility. But I'm still not seeing what exactly he needs to take responsibility for? In fact, I can't even see any clear area where this young man did not "do the right thing."

 

By making a statement that he was bisexual called is morality into question.

 

How so? You say that if he lied about it, then he is being dishonest, etc etc. So now is he guilty until proven innocent? Or are you saying that if he is, in fact, bisexual, that his morality is being called into question?

 

I did see where someone said I was questioning the "victim". I feel we live in a society that teaches us to be victims.

 

That may be the case. But that doesn't mean that true victims should not be treated as such.

 

Before, ever joining scouts we looked at policys to see if it would expose our children to things we did not want them exposed too.

 

You'd be OK with one of your children being called into a meeting with his troop leadership and having his sexuality questioned? Without you being present, or even being informed ahead of time?

 

Sexual misconduct being one of them

 

Again, when did the sexual misconduct occur? If we assume that sexual misconduct did not occur, there was no need for any meeting between the Scout and the troop leadership. If sexual misconduct had occurred, then the troop leadership still did not take the appropriate steps to resolve that situation.

 

Like you, I'm sure that there's parts of this story that we're not hearing. But I'm having a hard time coming up with any imaginable situation that would justify that course of action that the leadership in this troop seems to have taken.

(This message has been edited by KC9DDI)

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Baden ,

I just want to say that I don't really feel this was an inquisition...In fact, I do not think that it was as bad as what it was made out to be...In one later post I read, I realized that there is some other drama in this troop and there may be a couple different groups wanting control.

 

I do not think anyone should be brought before a lynch mob. I do think the young man should be acountable for what he says, though!

 

I am glad there were 5 people in there. It was mentioned that the CC and COR were there. That way all the key players know what was said.

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Just curious Scoutmom...

 

You apparently take umbrage with the boy's decision to diffuse the situation he was in by using a verbal retort that you say puts into question the boy's dedication to being "trustworthy" and "morally straight".

 

I suppose there for if he'd turned on the bully and kicked in the groin... would that have been ok on the "boys will be boys" rule?

 

And yes... 5 adults on 1 child discussing the child's sexual orientation IS an inquisition. The child is defenseless in that scenario.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

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KC,

 

I noticed that some of the quotes you took, were a little out of context.

 

First, yes based on BSA policy, God, and my beliefs, I believe sexual misconduct is immorral.

Whether society agrees is irrelevant! We should still strive to fulfill our duty to God even in the realm of sexual morality. I am not going to argue what we think about this. If someone does not want to abide by it, then by all means noone is forcing you to be a Scout.

 

Second, yes you can treat as a victim but even victims have opportunity to choose what they do...

 

Third,

 

Absolutley would allow my son, at 17, to be interrogated by Scout leadership if his actions had led them there. At this age, he is almost ready to go off to college and he can not handle this situation I would be very afraid of what may happen when he get called into the deans office or principle's office! Even in Cubs, my son is held accountable!

 

Fourth,

Sometimes it is our words that get us into bad situations.

 

I feel that a lot of us are getting wound up about something that may or may not have taken place and not reading the entire context!

 

One more thought, if there were rumors floating around..which would be better for the young man...to be asked and given opportunity to respond or be sent to authorities??

 

I agree that if acusation was made, then by all means follow youth protection but if they were just rumors??? Just asking

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As far as all this goes, I would not want this young man in a leadership position, simply because he he does not make the best decisions when placed in difficult positions...

 

Sometimes people make mistakes. Adults placed in difficult decisions have made far, far worse mistakes. Yet you'd ban a young man from a position of leadership because of a single word? (What if he had used a swear word instead? That's not really being morally straight.) Where do you draw the line? And what is our responsibility to help young men and women grow and learn to make the right decisions?

 

Let's spin this around. Let's say that Jack Smith, under the same kind of bullying, shouted out "I'm not gay, I've had sex with six girls!" Should Mr. and Mrs. Smith be OK with having their son questioned about his sex life and sexuality by five adults? The CC and COR were there, after all. Doesn't that make it all right?

 

==========================

 

An aside to Seattle Pioneer, Crew21 and BadenP: You all have said, in essence, "We shouldn't be forming opinions about this because we're only getting one side of the story." That's utterly ridiculous. Not having the full story certainly doesn't stop people here from opining about how a troop thousands of miles away is being mismanaged, or how members of a camp staff six states over screwed up, or how the CSE (in far off Irving, Texas) is incompetent and should be fired.

 

If we required statements from all sides before discussing a situation, the only threads active on this forum would be inquiries about patch placement, requests for ECOH ceremony scripts and people asking for the OA forum password.

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engineer,

 

Really? Absolutley not...had he fought, there would have been consequences! I am through with this topic...If this boy is working on Eagle he is hold enough to handle this...Did anyone even think that maybe, just maybe the Scout did not want mom and dad there?

I know a lot of teenagers and sometimes they don't want mom and dad to know the whole story and just want mom and dad to hear their side?

 

Anyway, I am done with this topic...I am glad those leaders were looking out for the Pack...

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ScoutMom - So now you are down to one way or another he is lying, if nothing else is wrong with this young man.. Does that lying warrent not being allowed to run for SPL or ASPL? Should he be kicked out of the troop for lying?..

 

I guess I would not see it as a mortal sin if I lie to get away from an abusive situation.. If this boy was being abused and harrassed, and they were forcing and taunting him to say something to get away from the abuse, I would not hang the one who was abused up for lying, to escape persecution.. Not sure what the bullying was like for the boy, but something caused him to think this was the way out. Whether it was a little uncomfortable for him and he cracked and called "uncle" without much pressure, or if it got to be unbearable and he took alot of abuse before caving in to a "forced" declaration.

 

Does the range of abuse he had to take to crack, play into how guilty he might be of the charge of lying.

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I thought I would return to the topic, "how would your troop handle a rumor of a bisexual scout?"

 

Rumor? I would do nothing, though I might watch for any issues of people not wanting to share a tent with the Scout.

 

His statement? I would have a quiet SMC with the Scout, to talk about the risks that come from shouting out certain things. If he then reported the bullying from summer camp, I would pass on that information to the Camp Staff / Council folks.

 

Would I let him run for SPL? Sure I would, and the Troop might or might not respond to the rumor and not vote for him.

 

Now, if during the SMC he comes out of the closet to me, I am in an interesting quandry. I would remind him that the BSA interprets morally straight to disallow adults who are homosexual. I would let him know that he would struggle in Scouting, and possibly not pass a BOR, if he openly comes out of the closet (I think the term used by some is "avowed homosexual").

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Did anyone even think that maybe, just maybe the Scout did not want mom and dad there?

 

That's irrelevant to the fact that the parents should have been informed of the leaderships intentions to have this interrogation ahead of time. Even that's irrelevant, as the interrogation never should have taken place.

 

I agree that we're probably not seeing the whole story. But as unreliable as a one-sided account of events may be (not saying that 5YS is not credible, but just allowing for the possibility that there are events unknown both to him/her and to us), I'd say that imaginary hypotheticals that are inconsistent with the description of events are even less credible. And I still haven't heard a single imaginary explanation that could justify the behavior shown by the troop's adult leadership.

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Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings again!

 

I think only few of us are stating that this situation should be conducted carefully for all parties. Not condemning the Scout nor the adults.

 

For Engineer. "And yes... 5 adults on 1 child discussing the child's sexual orientation IS an inquisition. The child is defenseless in that scenario."

 

I cannot speak for scoutmom or any others, but I nearly agree with you. A questioning on sexual orientation is uncalled for. Should they question how the boy feels or what he thinks? I agree, no. Should the adult leadership ask him about what he said or what he has done, I would say that is called for.

 

Given the opportunity to be there and review the behavior of the adult leadership. If I knew those leaders violated, humiliated, or degraded the Scout, I would ask them for their resignation. But only reading the emotional opinion of another parent with quotations things that may or may not have been said. I would not condemn them yet.

 

The forum was told by an emotional parent of another Scout, that was not inside the meeting. "We are investigating your sexuality." The OP was not in that meeting, but has quoted these leaders. Instigating a riot, and now many of our forum members have already condemned these leaders. None of us know what was said in that meeting, but forum members have condemned the adult leaders as being corrupt and hostile.

 

Additionally OP stated that the adults are going to "make sure" the Scout hasn't done or said inappropriate things to other scouts on campouts. How did the adult leaders learn of that something was said or something was done.

 

Were the adult leaders told that this Scout done or said something inappropriate? They must have been. Who told the Scout leadership of this Life Scouts statement and possible behavior? Was it a Scout or another parent, were there more than one Scout or more parents that have brought a concern to the adult leaders? We (the forum members) don't know if it was one Scout or most of the troop and parents.

 

If the adult leaders were told by other Scouts or possibly concerned parents in the troop that this Scout had done something inappropriate. Could they be held responsible for ignoring it?

 

Many of our forum members have condemned the adult leaders to conducting an "inquisition". Again I say, let's treat this Scout with respect and also treat the adults with the same respect. I would support that the adult leadership are responsible for providing a safe environment for the entire troop.

 

Again. Hopefully the adult leadership of this troop is mature enough to use sound judgement with this Scout and these events.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

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shortridge

 

You are comparing apples to oranges, this is not about a debate of an aspect of the scout program, it is about a boys life his reputation and future and a group of overzealous scout leaders who by their actions crossed the line. We do not have all the facts and some are passing judgement. shortridge, that would be like if I said you were a wife beater because someone told me you were and we all here debated that issue, and passed judgement on you.

 

Your argument is as pathetically weak as your premise, and is plainly untrue!(This message has been edited by BadenP)

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Crew21 continues to insist that an inquiry of this nature would be OK if it were conducted in a "respectful" manner. I see two flaws with this claim.

 

First, the only thing we're told the scout did, whether action or words, was to claim that he was bisexual. Crew21 drew a connection between that statement and the safety of other youth in the unit. I asked him to explain that connection, and so far, he has not. The only connection that I can see is a belief that someone who bisexual (or homosexual, by extrapolation) is predisposed to act out inappropriately toward others based on that trait. If there is some other basis for the connection, I would like to hear it. If not, then I question why, as a Venturing leader, Crew21 is not concerned about admittedly heterosexual youth acting out inappropriately toward youth of the opposite sex.

 

Second, if the leaders who conducting such an inquiry have a good faith suspicion that a youth has acted in a sexually inappropriate manner toward other youth, their duty is not to conduct an investigation of any sort into the circumstances. YP training is clear that their one and only duty is to report it to the SE (and to authorities if it is potentially criminal or abusive within the meaning of their state's law). They are not supposed to make any determination of whether it is well-founded before reporting. (See this thread for a discussion of the scope of this reporting obligation: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=313039#id_313295 )

 

So I ask again, if the only allegation being made is that a scout claimed to be bisexual (regardless of the veracity of that claim), how is the safety of other scouts implicated?(This message has been edited by the blancmange)

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A Scout is Kind. Did we forget that?

 

If I was called into a 5 on 1 meeting at work or church over a smart-a$$ remark I made to someone making a smart-a$$ remark to me I would feel a bit prosecuted. It would feel like a star chamber. I don't care how "nice" anyone acted, heck for BOR we only have 3 and you are allowed to bring someone along for moral support!

 

Good chance that even a straight boy would be so mortified that he might leave Scouts forever. Probably keep any family members out to.

 

Anyway if a guy is bisexual does that mean he is 1/2 in and 1/2 out of Scouting? Can he only go to 1/2 the camp-outs or has to stop at 1st Class.

 

I hear so many boys, and I am sure I am not the only ASM around, that has heard boys catcalling, calling each other gay, pretending to be gay, etc, etc that it would be ridiculous to interrogate each and every time someone said something in jest at camp.

 

5year, you should be proud of your son he did live up to A Scout is Brave and A Scout in Honest.

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We do not have all the facts and some are passing judgement.

 

We NEVER have all the facts here, yet people ALWAYS pass judgment. That is my point. It has nothing to do with the topic.

 

On a side note, I'm perpetually fascinated by how one can be made boiling mad by someone in Thread A, but be nodding in rapt agreement with them in Thread B. Aren't the intertubes great?

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