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Thomas54

Water guns

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Our reputation is hurt far more by those that erect a straw man with a BSA hat on, and proceed to rip him apart straw by straw. It's a hateful thing to do. Cannot understand why folks get a charge out of doing that.

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Yah, FScouter, what straw man do yeh see here? Thomas54 and JoeBob both report that two councils in different parts of da country both interpret G2SS to prohibit water pistols as simulated firearms, and have eliminated activities and prevented youth from "carrying".

 

So it ain't hypothetical, it's real. Glad to know you're embarrassed by it, though. ;) I think we all should be.

 

Beavah

 

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See the thread regarding too many BSA rules taking the fun out of scouting. G2S2 can be interpreted to outlaw the use of squirt guns and in examples provided by others, some individauls or councils or districts already have.

 

Our scouts have had water pistols at some campouts, no one became a gun nut and no hypersensative neighboring campers called the local media to spin the tale that BSA is raising a bunch of ultra right gun nuts at age 11 or 12.

 

I guess someone bent on following every rule to the letter, no matter how ridiculous could have given me and my fellow scouters on those events a hard time about not sticking religiously to G2S2.....but it was a harmless activity, it was safe and the boys had FUN as COMMON SENSE prevailed.

 

Related story, 5 years back the boys wanted to do the dreaded, perilous forbidden lazer tag. I told them it couldn't be an official troop activity but if they wanted to do it as an independant event, then fine(they even do this stuff in organized church youth groops by the way). I am not about to try to enforce BSA rules on their private life. They had friends both in the troop and outside of it, no BSA discount, no BSA funds and a mix of adult leaders and parents attend, some not even connected to our troop. I had a committee member who was one of the rabid rule types complain and I told them it was an event outside the troop. She went and complined to the DC who called me to tell me to cancel it. I told him some boys were doing this on their own, totally outside of scouting and he still told me to cancel or they might fire me (SM) and the committee chair. I asked him if he wanted me to police every family in the troop to be sure they adhered to all BSA rules in their private lives and he thought I was being ridiculous. I then told him the boys can do whatever they want outside of scouting and I was going to do nothing about it. He threatened again and I asked him if he had another SM and CC lined up to take our place as the pay was the same if we stayed or left and leaving would give us more less work and aggrivation. Also noted was our unit was being resurrected from near dead by me and others and if me and the CC were gone they would loose pretty much all the other adult leaders and about 75% of the scouts.

 

He was silent for a minute and then wanted to confirm this had no connection to the unit then explaimed that BSA rules have no jurisdiction over activities outside of BSA so go ahead.

 

I haven't figured out yet why he changed his tune so quickly.......

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"I fail to see how a water gun is a "simulated firearm"."

 

I'm wondering how the police officers who shoot people with water pistols (seems there's a couple of news articles about this happening somewhere in the US every year) would answer this?

 

I'm wondering how bank tellers and retail clerks who have been robbed, or nearly robbed, by people who point water pistols at them would answer this?

 

Granted, these are water pistols that aren't going to have that space-ray look that water guns commonly have nowadays, yet we still have people trained in knowing what a gun looks like shooting people who are carrying water pistols. I call that enough evidence to tell me that water pistols can be considered simulated firearms.

 

If some Councils want to interpret that rule to say that water pistols aren't allowed, I'm ok with that. If some want to be loose about it, I'm ok with that too.

 

Water soaked sponges and water balloons aren't new - we used them at Day Camp back in the 70's and 80's. Frankly, they're more fun and satisfying than water guns on a hot summer day anyway - you get wet faster.

 

I'd even wonder if a Cub Scout would find using water soaked sponges and water balloons more fun than water guns anyway. They can use water guns at home - how many get to use big, whopping sponges of water at home? We had a thread about the "fun" being regulated out of Scouting. Can anyone honestly say that using water soaked sponges is less fun than using water guns? The Cub Scouts aren't going to care - as long as they get to run around, squeal like 7-10 years old girls (err boys), and get wet. At the end of the activity, the big grin on a Cub Scout's face should be enough to tell you that he had fun.

 

Before the BSA is accused of bringing "PC" baggage to the table (and frankly, anyone who labels something as "PC" is just upset that there are consequences to doing anything they feel like doing), keep in mind the BSA has not just developed these rules and policies - the BSA has been consistent on these for decades. The BSA has never allowed weapons to be pointed at people or human looking targets (and most BSA rifle, shotgun and archery range instructors, through the ages, would have your head if you pointed a weapon anywhere but down range), has opposed laser tag and paintball as unit activities since they first came about (though they now allow them as target practice), and has suggested to day camps at least as far back as 1979 when I took National Camp School training for Day Camp that water guns should not be used at Day Camp. None of this is new within the Boy Scouts of America, and none of this is likely to change.

 

Either we accept their wisdom on this or move on to another organization. It's time to stop bringing our own baggage in to this and act like Thomas54's Boy Scout - accept it maturely, and move on.

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----UPDATE------UPDATE------UPDATE-----

 

The scouts could use squirt guns. I just talk to my Boy Scout.

 

The scouts were given squirt guns provided by the camp. The scouts could shoot only into a bucket held by another scout.

 

 

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Either we accept their wisdom on this or move on to another organization. It's time to stop bringing our own baggage in to this and act like Thomas54's Boy Scout - accept it maturely, and move on.

 

I respect your opinion but last I knew there was freedom of speech and expression, just because someone does not 100% tow the line without feedback or opinion, does not qualify it as baggage. Most of the adults involved in BSA are volunteers, they don't have to be here if they choose not to. To insinuate they do everything exactly as prescribed and they are not allowed to have an opinion on any matter (Be it on a website, in a Roundatble or talking with other scouters personally) would have undesirable effects (Lose a lot of adult volunteers).

 

Political Correctness is real and is out of control having many undesirable effects. Anyone remember the story about 7 years back of the 8 year old expelled from school for using a chicken tender as a simulated gun with friends playing in school ?

 

How many threads have been on here and other boards lamenting the decline in the number of boys in scouting or how youth today in so many places consider scouting to be nerdy and uncool. Here is just one small of many, many examples contributing to that problem.

 

Can you imagine a group conversation at say....a roundtable and when topics come up that adult leaders express thier opinion on the effect some of the ridiculous rules BSA foists on them (In BSA's wisdom) they are told to obey them and not voice any opinion.....any idea where that will lead ?

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One other thought (And Calico I was not meaning any disrespect, just pointing out a road we maight not all want to go down)...

 

So when is it BSA will make a rule against water sponges and water balloons, either that some kid gets hurt when his glasses get busted or some whiney parent complains it simulates hand grenades and miliary and BSA caves to pressure and bans them.

 

 

Don't laugh, it could be closer than you think, how many threads have we read regarding CAMO and is it banned or not, the bandwagon for banning citing simulation of miliary garb.

 

Maybe they can throw water balloons but are banned from making a whistling, then an exploding noise when the balloon is in flight and then "lands".

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Using the same logic scouts can't squirt a garden hose. When I was a scout we used the #10 cans used for fire buckets next to the tents. Super soakers weren't invented yet. Next capture the flag will be considered war like. Oh yeah, it is.

 

 

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I'm wondering how the police officers who shoot people with water pistols (seems there's a couple of news articles about this happening somewhere in the US every year) would answer this?

 

Yah, not to interfere with a good story or anything, but these are pretty rare and mostly involve airsoft toy guns not squirt guns. Police officers also shoot people carrying garden hoses, cell phones, wallets, glasses cases, inhalers, and the like. I'm not sure it justifies a worldwide ban on cell phones or asthma meds. Rather, it shows that people, especially trained law enforcement officers, who choose to point real firearms at other people should exercise extreme care and caution, eh?

 

Now of course if yeh are actually engaged in a crime like robbin' a bank, I reckon it doesn't matter much whether yeh have a toy gun, a real gun, or a finger in your pocket. Da issue is the crime. But we're not talkin' about that, are we? We're talkin' about a bunch of kids runnin' around a camp field or woods with squirt guns. That's pretty easy to distinguish from bank robbery I reckon. Note the lack of a bank. ;)

 

All of da police officers I know, and I know quite a few, let their own kids play with squirt guns. And paintball, for that matter.

 

Yah, I get that some folks have philosophical objections to or irrational fears of toy guns, eh? And to eating meat, and to wearing uniforms, and to single-sex activities, and to taking pledges or oaths, and to adventure sports, and to youth leadership, and to almost anything else. I'm happy to support 'em and their family, just so long as they don't try to take such things away from everyone else's kids.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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Is a reasonable compromise to use the little noodle things with a plunger type device inside where you suck up the water by drawing it back and then shoot it out by pushing the plunger back in?

 

That seems nothing like a gun and would be much more fun probably.

 

You may even be able to use it to talk about air pressure or water pressure for a belt loop or pin.

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My spouse plays Airsoft on the weekends, and I have to say, his Airsoft guns look extremely real. Black, solid looking, cartridges pop in for the BBs.

 

My son's water guns? Not so much. Big white, blue and orange hand pumping spraying water 35 feet.

 

We did water guns at the Cub Scout camp last week. The district training chair ran it, and it was planned for Friday at the camp by him. If it was wrong, it can fall on his shoulders. All I know is that I had tired, soaking wet Cubs with huge smiles on their faces at the end of the day.(This message has been edited by CCbytrickery)

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Interesting twists and turns - water "guns" (gun and firearm are synonyms BTW), Water filled balloons, waterfilled sponges, marshmallows. All projected at another.....(there are some folks and a few with law degrees who might have suggested this is not "kind" BTW)

 

To play both sides of the fence - would it matter that my "watergun" puts out several gallons a minute and has a pressure boost and yours won't squirt but 3 feet? What if the balloons are propelled with great accuracy and distance via a crew served sling - as in 100 yards or 20 feet? Do the sponges fill with dirt, grass, or other objects after round one? What is the safe area to do these activities?

 

Are the marshmallows flaming at the time of lauch? (and have you every really looked at the risks associated with S'Mores? - That was a NAM topic in Orlando, got calls for 6 months that we were banning them.........Because of the fire risks BTW, well that and bears.....)

 

As to the OP - the click23 quote is the source I'd point to.

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Firearm

n. A gun, pistol, or any weapon from which a shot is discharged by the force of an explosive substance, as gunpowder.

 

water pistol

n a toy pistol that squirts a stream of water or other liquid Also called water gun or squirt gun.

 

I think it is absurd to equate something that squirts water to something that shoots projectiles at high velocity.

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I bet those cops who shot people with cell phones at sometime in their childhood used a squirt gun.

 

 

 

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