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If you don't want him to be a den leader, then keep the leader you currently have, and find another job for this guy--like helping with paperwork, or doing a task for a campout or pack meeting. See if he handles that kind of responsibility, gets out of his shell, and steps up or not before doing anything else regarding his leadership or lack there of.


I could see several reasons why a parent would retreat to their tent at a pack campout that have nothing to do with being antisocial. We had one dad who was a den leader who worked nights, and sometimes in the middle of the day his asst den leader would take over and he'd go to his tent for the rest of the day to sleep. The parents in his den didn't know what was going on until we talked about it. they only knew that he was always wide awake and happy at 6:30pm den meetings but that was because he'd just woken up from sleeping most of the day.


We also have parents who don't understand that the den leaders aren't totally in control of the activies and feel like a 3rd wheel hanging around with the den and the group, so they step away and don't help their kid when we think it should be a no-brainer that dad should be right there helping his kids.


As for the ADHD stuff, don't go there. Nor the Benedryl stuff. Unless you have a med form in front of you, you do not know if the benedryl is for treating allergies, and that their ADHD is medicated or not. Just cause you don't see ADHD tendencies in a den meeting really doesn't mean a darned stinking thing. If you want to know the diagnosis and treatment and how you as pack leader can help the dad and the den leader help these boys get thru scouting with their diagnosis--as an actual helping hand, not as a way to criticize the dad--then leave the kids diagnoses out of the situation. Just cause you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.


Are you the den leader of these boys who sees them for an hour a week, or are you a pack leader who sees them in pack meetings and a few other events?


I can address the felony issue separately, but so far our council has not denied any applications with a felony listed--as they were not related to harms against children.

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By sending on an application to council, which clearly states the man was convicted of a felony, it will appear to your council that your Charter Organization fully supports, and approves of this man as a leader in their Pack. This will be weighed in the man's favor if the background check does not turn up anything youth protection related.


As others have said, if your Charter Organization does not want to have this man as a leader, it should not approve his application - Period.


Hoping to pass the buck to your council, that is simply wrong.


As for any youth protection issue, before reporting this man to Child Protection Services for giving his sons Benedryl, you might just talk to him the next time you see him giving it to his sons, and mention that adult doses can be dangerous for children. Perhaps he is unaware, and is in the "more is better" crowd.


Also, as others have mentioned, ADHD presents differently in every person (child and adult), and does not come with a flashing sign around the neck. Unless you are the boy's medical doctor, if the parents have put on their sons medical forms that they have ADHD, I would take them at their word.

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You know, it could be, if you're all eating your own food, that he didn't really bring any food himself and is embarrassed that others might see that he's basically eating nothing. Maybe, in order to take the "time off" to come out with you all, he works twice as hard the few days before and is really sleep deprived -- enough that he can be up and awake and going when he needs to but just tired in his bones and wants to sleep. Perhaps he's more shy than you think and just doesn't make new friends very easily.

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I appreciate the continued discussion.


I didn't bring it up in the original post (re Papadaddy) because although I personally would not endorse the individual, the rest of the PC may do so. And the original question was only if the Council would automatically ditch a registration if a felony was indicated. It seems like the general response on that particular questions is...mixed.


I understand about the ADHD / disability pitfalls. I'm currently trying to set up a District Chair position for a Scouting with Disabilities Chair as a go-to person in our District, and I've been neck-deep in that for a while. Also, my own son is an Aspy with his own challenges.


I do see an opportunity for an opening to talk with dad and mom about updating the boys' medical records...because I have the forms from the last event and neither ADHD nor medication is noted.


A brief conversation with my schoolmarm wife reveals that the boys spent in-office detention for threatening to kill another student (they just crossed over to Bear). They actually brought the bat to school.


These boys need to stay in Scouting, it's probably the only positive thing they have in their lives. Good thing is they didn't try to stab me with a Silva when I was instructing Map & Compass (joking).


But if dad walks, the boys disappear.


Fun ain't it??


There is a good chance they're already in the CPS system. I need to give the elementary guidance counselor a quick call.


As far as dad goes, all I am doing is making a recommendation to CC and COR to interview him privately before asking him to fill out an application.


PS - the felony was within the past few years and he lost his nurses' aid certification? Not sure of the technical name for the position.







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"There is a good chance they're already in the CPS system. I need to give the elementary guidance counselor a quick call." Don't bother, they shouldn't be talking to you anyway. You already have expressed "reasonable doubt" multiple times -- it's time to pass it on to your COR and Council Ex.


That being said, we don't know exactly what the felony is for. You're closest, you'd know more about the person than any of us could know.


I almost had a felony once. I went to a gaming convention (I was running games for Wizards of the Coast and they were paying for my hotel stay, etc.). At the last moment, I decided to take a pirate costume for the masquerade on the last day of the convention. My suitcase was already completely packed (mostly with books to run the games with), so I threw the costume into my backpack. When I went through the airport, in 2003, I think, the X-ray tech saw the fake pirate jewelry (which is all made from wires and paste, you know) and the outline of the fake wooden Pirates of the Caribbean gun and I got pulled out of line pretty quickly. They arrested me with a felony charge of "Replica of a firearm in an airport secure ares." Thankfully, they didn't actually press charges afterward and so I can still say that I have never had a felony conviction.


Anyway, as long as there's no youth protection issues, if a person "paid the price" and you think they're a good guy, I personally wouldn't pay that much attention to the felony charge (although I would possibly try to minimize future temptation, like not putting a grand larceny 3 convicted person in charge of the treasury, etc.).


However, you already have "reasonable doubt", you've expressed it multiple times, it's time to just go report it and put it into your COR's and Council Executive's hands.

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"A brief conversation with my schoolmarm wife reveals that the boys spent in-office detention for threatening to kill another student (they just crossed over to Bear). They actually brought the bat to school.


These boys need to stay in Scouting [...]"


Three thoughts.


1. The school counselor should not discuss with you, whether these boys are in the CPS system - that is not public info and shouldn't be shared.


2. You say these boys need scouting - do the other scouts in the pack need these boys? If they had threatened to "kill" my child and brought the weapon to school, and they were in the same pack as my child, and the pack leadership took the position that "they need scouting," I and my child would be gone from there in a heartbeat.


Be sure you aren't driving other children away from scouting by making this calculation. Other boys need scouting, too. Their safety and reasons for wanting to be part of the pack are no less valid.


3. It doesn't matter at the end of the day whether the family is in the "system" or not, or really what the felony is for. If the pack leadership feels he isn't a good example of a leader, then the pack leadership should have the spine to say so. Don't expect council staff (who don't know this guy) to carry the water here. Think about what's best for the whole pack, including all families, and not just what's easiest, or what's best for one family.



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A brief conversation with my schoolmarm wife reveals that the boys spent in-office detention for threatening to kill another student (they just crossed over to Bear). They actually brought the bat to school.... There is a good chance they're already in the CPS system. I need to give the elementary guidance counselor a quick call.


Yah, hmmmmm....


BluejacketScouter, I think yeh need to take a step back, eh? You're not just steppin' over the line, you're leaping over it. Yeh just admitted on a public forum that your wife broke the law by releasing confidential student record information to you outside of school, and now you're talkin' about tryin' to do the same with the school guidance counselor.


We all care about kids, eh? And there are times when da folks in kids' lives need to share information for their well being. But it's important to approach such times with a real sense of care and professionalism. That isn't comin' across in your posts, mate. More like rumor and innuendo, perhaps even because the fellow liked the former Cubmaster who you did not.


If da committee and the COR want to endorse him as a leader, that's their call. You can have your say in it, but don't be releasin' things that you shouldn't or spreadin' gossip.


What you have described here would not be what I personally consider a reasonable suspicion of child abuse or neglect. Heck, it wouldn't even rise to poor parenting. Just poor paperwork and your somewhat odd suspicions about Benadryl. Some docs, BTW, do suggest Benadryl for youth with mild sleep problems because it's free of side effects and has a short half-life in the body. We've seen a few.


So based on what you've reported here, I'd suggest that yeh take a step back and add a healthy dollop of "mind your own business" to your approach. But if yeh do have anything that rises to the level of reasonable suspicion of abuse or neglect by the parents, yeh don't talk to the school counselor, yeh don't talk to the Scout Executive or dig up dirt. Yeh call CPS to report your concern, and then you let it be. But if yeh do, be aware that there's no guarantee that the parent won't figure it out and pull the lads from scouting.




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I'm sorry BluejacketScouter for me when I see:

" I've spoken with the individual several times in an effort to draw him out or "mentor" him, but he doesn't like me very much since I got his pal the rogue Cubmaster bounced out of the unit."

This raises a red flag.

Could it be that you are doing your best to ensure that this guy isn't allowed to gain membership?

From what you have posted I really feel that you are going way beyond just being a Scouter and are very close to crossing the mark.


I'm not an expert on how the background check is done.

To the best of my knowledge the BSA has contracted this out to a company who does this sort of thing.

The report goes from that company to National and from National to the Council.

Each and everyone of us need to do all we can to ensure that the kids we serve are safe and free from harm.

The background check is a big part of this.

We all should be happy to go along with what comes from it.

While it does seem unfair that when someone is turned down that they remove their kids from the program. This is their choice. We have no control over this and we need to look at serving all the kids not just dwell on the kids who are removed or might be removed.


Something here, about all of this sounds a little fishy, at least to me.



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Let's see.....this guy admits to a felony conviction for violent behavior ....... doesn't participate much ...... I'd say no and there is no need to accept his application.(This message has been edited by evmori)

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And now his sons are taking a ball bat to school to kill a class mate. WOW.


Where do you think they learned that behavior?


Guess what those boys earn their whittle chip this year........What might happen if they get mad??????????



I would drop the entire den leader issue with him.



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Wow, Bluejacket - what in the heck are you doing? Get out of this, get as far away as you can as fast as you can! Your initial question was a good one that merits discussion for the benefit of the forum. But adding on the rest of the story and now reading your perspective we should all be truly alarmed at what youre doing here


We are not the ones to keep an eye on kids or decide which kids need Scouting we are volunteers presenting a simple program to kids, not prepared to get into heavy stuff like this. Stop this now, pass on your concerns to the SE about child abuse and get the heck out of the way (hes very possibly doping his own kids!?). Theres much larger issues going on here that are waaaaay beyond the scope of what we do in Scouting. There is no freaking way you should be even encouraging this guy to become a leader at this point many CORs rely on the recommendations and input from existing leaders about new ones; your name attached to this is going to give the impression that you approve of him. Please - Run away!


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I must say BlueJacket, as a den leader (per your profile), you really have little say in what leaders your Charter Organization accepts. It is not up to you to be digging up "dirt" on this individual. The fact that you obviously have a bad history with this man makes it rather look like you might be looking for any way you can to get rid of him.


This is something that should be left entirely in the hands of your Pack Committee Chair(CC), and your Charter Organization(CO). As a Pack den leader about all you can do is give your opinion that you do not feel he would make an appropriate leader. That's it. No dirt digging, no smearing, no spreading school yard gossip. It is up to the CC and CO, not you, or anyone else, to decide if they want to ask this man to be a leader in the Pack.

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I'm in absolute agreement with Lisa and Beavah.


Have the adult do his app.


He needs to have a businesslike conversation with the Committee Chair. That's the first sign/no sign gate. CC doesn't endorse the app? DONE.


He needs to have a businesslike conversation with the Chartered Organization Rep and/or the Institutional Head. That's the second sign/no sign gate. COR/IH doesn't endorse the app? DONE.


If he gets through the COR/IH gate, submit it to Council and see what the background check yields. Council will either accept his membership or not. Either way? DONE.


Stop talking about the circumstances in an open forum. Do the process.

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