Old vs New style of NYLT

[moosetracker 132]

In the originating thread, NJCubScouter asked me the difference between the old & new style of NYLT.. I thought to spin it off, as it may be a subject that would hijack the original thread, and it might be a subject to attract & interest people who are not following the other thread..

 

I have not been a part of the old/new style, to give a blow by blow difference on it. Maybe some of you guys have been involved to know the changes. I would imagine there must be some watering down of the Boy Scout specific topics to make it more generic to the three programs.

 

But, the subject was introduced as an example of one person (who donates a lot to the council).. He also runs our NYLT program for years, not accepting the new NYLT program. Refuses to do it, and our council not forcing the issue (sounds like due to contribution, but I am sure it is a question of not wanting to find his replacement for the job). Instead they are looking to create a second weekend course and run the old style program with the original guy. And the new NYLT with a whole new group of staff (after they find someone willing to take it on, and enough staff to man it, which is an issue in itself)..

 

I do not know if there is complanit of the change of the program. Others might be able to explain that.

 

The biggest upheaval and objection I hear about is to the allowing of the Venturers & Explorers in.. Meaning co-ed as well as a mixing of the different programs.. To hard core Boy Scout enthusists there are those who disapprove of the Venturing program altogether and see it as loosy-goosy with no direction or purpose (Never heard of the same objections to the Explorers.. They were just a different program, and not much on the radar.) Others do not want to take on the issues and headaches that the co-ed equation brings with it (not the women as women but the co-ed mixing and having to worry about sexual attraction at an age where the libido is running rampant and the brain is not mature to think things through).. Others do not want to deal with the females and it may be discrimination..

 

For all I know the philanthopist I am talking about could be one of the religions "Later Day" or whatever that has a big problem with a co-ed program.. So for the same reasons that getting Boy Scouts to someday go co-ed is a problem even if you leave it up to the units to choose.. This may be the issue with asking him to make the NYLT program co-ed.

 

So, what is the opinion on the subject of the NYLT program change? I know it was brought up before about 6 months ago, as a new change. I heard some grumbling on the forum about the change.

 

Is anyone implementing the change? How is it going? What is different? What do you think about the it? Is any other council having resistance to the change, like my council?(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[moosetracker 132]

An additional question from me.. NYLT is suppose to be the equivalent of Woodbadge right?.. Woodbadge always has a new course director, new staff elected etc. In fact once you are a course director, you can never be it again. I know you can only be troop guide once, and a few other staff positions once. (This is my first time on staff this year, I had a choice of a troop guide or scribe.. I choose scribe, as I felt I would be more comfortable with it.) Sounds like our scribes can be scribe a few years though. As I hear comments like "so & so is usually scribe", "I did scribe for a few years.").. Any way, the way Woodbadge is staffed, it isn't really owned by anyone who has run it for years and years..

 

Why is NYLT not run in a similar manner? Why can the (I presume his title is course director) Course director be the same person year after year. So that this feeling of "ownership" can occur??(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Basementdweller 608]

I don't know about the staff changing over..... My staff was full of good old guys and gals. What you said maybe true for the course director, but not the other positions.

 

From what was said at my course...it sounded like they used NYLT as the test bed for changes to the woodbadge course.

[Eagle92 110]

Ok I cannot comment 100% on this topic, but this I can from my expereince at least.

 

When I went through BROWNSEA 22 (BA22) back in the day, it was advertised in my council as the youth equivilent of Wood Badge for scouts. Scouts removed all insignia, except council strip and the troop # 22. Most of the adults on staff had either completed WB, or were workign their ticket. Youth Staff had completed BA22 When you completed the course, instead of beads, the council awarded you a GI surplus campaign hat, aka Smokey Bear, and the only folks seen in my old council with Smokey Bears were adults who had completed WB and Scouts who completed BA22.

 

Six years later, when the council did the Junior Leader Training Convefence (JLTC) it was again advertised as the youth equivilent to WB. All adults on staff, save 1, had either completed WB, or were working their ticket. I was the only non-WB adult, and they accepted my BA22 training as equivilent. Since the council had not done a BA22 or JLTC in 6 years, 3/4s of the youth staff went through Instructor Course at Philmont (sorry cannot remember it's exact name, but beleive it was the National Youth Trainer Trainer Course). Those adults who had their beads already had their Smokeys. Those adults working their ticket, and youth staff received a GI Surplus Smokey Bear. They even gave me a new one since my BA22 one was "field expereinced" Once the JLTC participants completed the course they too recieved the surplus Smokey Bears, since WB beads are not authorized.

 

My gut feeling is that NLYT and WB21C are equivilent, minus the ticket, since Adult NYLT staffers can earn their 3rd and 4th beads.

[KC9DDI 11]

moosetracker - Can I ask which particular NYLT program change you're referring to? The program underwent a major rehaul around 2004 or so, which certainly caused some ruffled feathers. Recently there have been some more minor changes, where the core content of the course remains the same, but some administrative and logistical issues have been changed.

 

Most notably is opening the course to the Venturing program. Let me emphasize that I am a huge supporter of the Venturing program, and am involved with a couple different crews. I think its a fantastic program, and has the potential to contribute to solving the BSA's long term membership problems. But, I just think that Boy Scouting and Venturing are two different programs, with two different sets of goals and methods. Sure, there is some overlap, and many Venturers are former or current Boy Scouts. But, I don't think that NYLT, which is supposed to be an advanced leadership training program, and thus somewhat narrowly targetted and focused, can adequately address both programs. My skepticism isn't related to inviting females to the course (it does present some new logistical problems we'd have to address, but we can solve those). Instead, I'm more concerned about the program content itself. For example, Venturing does not make use of the patrol method, which is fundamental to the Boy Scout program, and had been a core component of the NYLT program. Now, there's some debate as to whether we can continue to use and teach the patrol method in NYLT. There's also some terminology updates - eg, we can't say "patrol" anymore, we have to say "team." Even the terms "troop," "SPL," "SM," etc are taboo, based on how this new program has been explained to me.

 

Again, with no disrespect intended towards the Venturing program as a whole, I do honestly feel that opening NYLT to Venturers has watered down what once was a very strong Boy Scout leader training program. I feel that both program would be much better served if they had their own training programs that were specifically targetted towards both programs' unique goals and methods.

 

As far as staff retention goes, I think there's a couple issues there. Firstly, in my council anyway, NYLT doesn't have the strong traditions and loyalties behind it that Woodbadge does. We also don't really offer any incentive other than job satisfaction for adult volunteers - no beads, neckerchiefs, critters, dongles, doodles, knots, etc. So maybe the Course Director position is less attractive. Also, in my council, it seems like while the professional staff and council-level volunteers certainly do support NYLT, its not to the same extent the Woodbadge receives council support. So we rely on NYLT volunteers with a couple of years of experience to provide much needed expertise, wisdom and continuity from year to year. We don't have any formal requirements as to how many years one can serve as a CD, but we do try to bring new people into the position, mainly so that no one gets too burnt out too fast. However, we do have an unwritten rule that a volunteer serve for 2 years or so as an NYLT troop-level ASM or SM to get familiar with the program before serving as a CD.

 

Hope this helps.

[SR540Beaver 116]

moose,

 

Unless recent changes were made in WB (I last staffed in Spring 2010 and was the back up CD), former staffers can hold the same position again except for the CD. In our council, that rarely happens, but I have seen a few people do TG twice. a few former CD's can be invited back to serve on support staff by the current CD. That means they do the cooking and pot scrubbing......and can serve as a mentoring resource to the CD.

 

I think the difference between WB and NYLT in relation to the CD is that in the old days, WB in many councils became elitist and you were either deemed worthy or not in the little feifdom. WB21C did away with the good old boys club....if the rules are followed by allowing a CD to only serve once and expecting 30% new staff per course. By allowing some staff to return, you have continuity. In our council, we have a WB Committee that is partially made up of former CD's that also provides for continuity. We put on two course per year and pretty much use a best practices approach and have the process down to a science. Much better than reinventing the wheel with each course, but manages to keep it from becoming a good old boys club.

 

Except in some instances I'm sure, NYLT has never had the "status" that WB had at one time as an exclusive club. It just wasn't as big a deal to be the NYLT king as it was to be the WB king in a council. At least that is the case in our council from my perspective. We've done a great job with WB, but a lousy job with NYLT. Our record is spotty at best. They have now put together an NYLT committee to mimic the process used by our WB comittee and get some continuity going. I believe from what I know from the folks I know on the committee, a CD would only be used twice if they simply couldn't secure a person to do a future course....and I don't see that being a problem.

[moosetracker 132]

KC9DDI - You may have explained the changes without knowing quite what I was refering to. All I knew was that the mixing of the programs was a new change, one some are grumbling about and others are upset we are not following the new changes and opening up the program to the Ventures.. I thought it was to Explorers to in the attempt for a "one size-fits-all" training approach..

 

I "assumed" that with a major shift of who the participants were, the course would have had to change.. You state that officially they did not change the course for this major shift of focus, but you are being asked to change what you call things, and the whole patrol method that is a major part of the course is in question about what to do with it.

 

Bottom-line, sounds like there was not thought first of the course structure in order to merge the groups.. Rather they merged the groups, throwing the who course structure in a tissy, with no course layout on how to make it work..

 

I can see this being an issue for those who run NYLT.. I know for me, if someone told me that my IOLS course was to incorporate the training of the Girl Scouts with no changes to the course material. Then the Girl scouts came in demanding I not make reference to the BSA G2SS.. Or include things specfic to their program.. Yet I had no knowledge of there program and no syllabus as to what I should be teaching to cater to them.. I would have a royal fit..

 

Nothing about the program, or the mixing of the sexes.. But, the assumption that National just flipped a switch with no forethought, and expected me to figure out how to handle it..

 

We happened to have a large chunk of the NYLT staff at our woodbadge dinner, this year which was unusual. They were holding a staff meeting that day, and were invited to join us since we had taken over the dining hall anyway.. To me our council NYLT staff seem very much feeling a tradition & loyalty to it, much like woodbadge. I do think, we do give them a third bead for being on the NYLT staff.. But, I doubt the bead creates the loyalty. It is more a feeling that you are a part of something great, that it is an honor to be asked to server, that it looks good on your "scouting" resume (if nothing else) to be a staff member.. With both I believe we have people wanting to be asked to be on staff, and trying their hardest to open their calendars to make all the required dates for it.. Don't know how to start the belief within the organization. But, once started, I believe it is self-perpetuating..

 

Basement - Some people are on staff for years & years, but from what I understand they bump around from position to position. Our Course directors will have many many years of being on the woodbadge staff, working from the bottom staffing jobs up.. We only have one or two continue on staff after being a course director. For most this is their last and final position, they will not be called any more.. But our Council training chair, and a past council training chair do remain on staff even though both have been Course directors(I think they are advisors)..

[qwazse 4342]

I think it'd be a shame to drop "patrol" just because venturers are in the room.

 

Part of my personal expectation of leadership training is that it expose me to different management models.

 

Most crews don't get beyond "patrol" size anyway. Mine does, but I've found that they split out into different functional groups, (e.g. climbing, backpacking, council area events). No matter what title you give the youth in charge (Activity Chair, Patrol Leader of Hiking, Czar of Ropes), learning how to manage these groups is their immediate proving ground.

 

I can also see how our SPL could benefit from a better understanding of the leadership model of a venturing crew. The simple knowlege that some BSA units organize into officers and activity chairs may help him raise the expectation of his PL's. In fact, my youngest son, who is looking for a position of responsibility was asking me a ton of questions about the Sea Scout positions listed in the Boy Scout handbook.

 

I might be wrong about this, but I think he'd be as good a PL if he went to NYLT with a bunch of sea scouts as he would if only boy scouts were in the camp.

[moosetracker 132]

SR540Beaver- I can see what you are saying that the history of woodbadge and old traditions have helped to establish WB as being an honor to serve on staff. I guess NYLT doesn't have that history.. Also since it is half staffed by the young, they may take the course be involved for another few years and drop scouting until life revolves back to raising their kids in scouting.. So your potential staff is fewer, as the NYLT graduates don't hang around as long as us Adults do..

 

So I guess Kudos to our CD for NYLT, as he has successfully established some of this tradition and honor to serve into our councils program.

 

qwazse - I agree, just because the training method isn't the way of the Crew, doesn't make it a bad training method for them.

[ScoutNut 147]

Just as the old Wood Badge was more program focused, with separate courses for Cub, and Boy Scout, leaders, so was the old Junior Leader training (Junior Leader Training Conference) more focused on the Boy Scout program specifically.

 

NYLT is, like the current Wood Badge, focused more on leadership skills that can be used by any youth (Boy Scout or Venturer) in a leadership position.

 

Has anyone sent any of their youth members to NAYLE training at Philmont?

 

[KC9DDI 11]

moose -

 

That's how I understand it. I haven't had time yet to do a page-by-page comparission between the new syllabus and the previous one, so there may be some minor tweaks to the activities and presentation sessions. But, based on how it was explained to me, we're mainly looking at changes in terminology and logistics, not a radical change to the core content like we saw around 2004/2005.

 

I'm sure that it is a good thing for Boy Scouts to see some exposure to how Venturing crews are run, and vice versa. But, I don't think that NYLT is the best place to do that. Up until now, one of the fundamentals of NYLT was that it simulated a month in the life of a Boy Scout troop, and really immersed the participants in this idea. Many of the methods of Scouting - patrol method, outdoor skills, adult association, ideals, leadership development, uniform and personal growth - weren't just discussed or simulated. They were put into real practice by the adult and youth staff, and by the participants. The NYLT course thus served several purposes - leadership development, development of scout skills, and a real model of the methods of Boy Scouting at its best.

 

I'm not saying that it will be a bad thing to open the program to Venturers, and in my council our staff development is right on track to conduct a fun and quality program for Boy Scouts and Venturers this summer. However, if you were going to ask me what the *best* way to provide advanced leadership training to Boy Scouts and Venturers would be, I would answer that each program deserves its own training courses specifically tailored to that program's unique goals and methods.(This message has been edited by KC9DDI)

[BDPT00 41]

There are numerous topics brought up by moosetracker, and they wander a bit. First was stated that the guy with the bucks who runs NYLT has done it for many years, and refuses to change. First question: Is he doing NYLT or JLTC? That change took place about 6 years ago, and many objected. If he's doing NYLT, then the change you're referring to is much more recent and must be about the addition of Venturing (That's a big negative on Exploring. They have nothing to do with this, so I think right from the start that your misconceptions are too numerous to tackle all at once. I'd suggest one question at a time). I'll tip my hand ... I don't care for it either.

You mentioned that there are beads involved, so I assume he's doing NYLT.

The other subject was Wood Badge. Staff are not "elected." There is no rule about being a troop guide only once. The concept of serving as scribe "for a few years" is ludicrous, and it sounds to me as though your training chairs are taking positions that should be filled by others. They should step aside.

Staffing for WB and NYLT are not the same. It takes a special kind of Scouter to develop NYLT staffers, many of whom could be 14 year olds with absolutely no presentation experience. Turning them into competant and confident young leaders takes patience, wisdom, and dedication. There's far more skill development needed for NYLT staffers. The participant is also far different. WB participants typically want to be there, and they know why. NYLT participants often have no clue, didn't pay for it themselves, lack maturity, and have no vested interest in building and maintaining friendships. It's two totally different worlds, and trying to fit them into the same box just won't work.

One other thing to mention when discussing NYLT: course director and Scoutmaster might be the same person; might not. It needs clarification. Example: is the guy you're talking about serving as a Scoutmaster for NYLT? Scoutmasters are eligible for a bead. Course directors are not. There's yet another topic.

This subject could be broken into 3 or 4 pieces. Sorry I rambled.

BDPT00

[Crew21_Adv 25]

moosetracker and Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings!

 

Here is my take on old vs new NYLT.

 

Before the 2004 NYLT, the previous JLTC course was identical to WB for Boy Scout Leaders. The curriculum was the exact same.

 

After NYLT was presented, the ideals and methods (and nearly the same tool box) is closely identical to WB21C, although most of the topics are written differently. If you look at an hourly chart of six days (or two weekends), the similar themes occur on the same days and nearly same hours.

 

My opinion, There is some prestige staffing WB, adults staffing NYLT does not carry that same camaraderie and prestige. It is incredibly easy to obtain staffers for WB, it is difficult to find an adult that will give personal time to staff NYLT.

 

My only disappointment with NYLT was when the literature stated that Council legacy course names and totems will not be effected and councils are encouraged to maintain their legacy. Then two years later, the NYLT curriculum stated that all legacy names and totems were to be immediately removed from NYLT, and it will now be called "... Council NYLT". I was shocked that national put that in writing, only to change their minds entirely and change the policy again in writing.

 

Within my troop, we have sent boys each year. All of our graduates have done well and help plan and carry out the annual plan within the troop. Nearly four years ago, one of our average Scouts recently elected as SPL was an average performer. (not bad, but definitely not the best) After NYLT he was phenomenal, and returned with a very positive influence during his remaining tenure as SPL.

 

I have had recently discussions with fellow Scoutmasters, whom believe WB21C is the ultimate experience and have heard negative comments regarding NYLT. They actually told me all the problems with NYLT, and they did not approve of their Scouts attending NYLT. It sounded like the feedback they received from their Scouts was a negative experience. My only response to them is that while we pre-brief Scoutmasters and parents what the typical NYLT day is, Scouts are never told what to expect. Only a handful of Scouts seem to be disappointed, when it's not six days of video games and the good ole' swimming hole. I think that is where some of my local Scoutmasters receive a negative opinion of NYLT. Their Scouts don't receive what they are expecting going into NYLT, so even with planning, teamwork and leadership training to experience a troop program of one month, they report the short typical teenage feedback "It's horrible, it s..ks". Honestly, the feedback I received from a few Scoutmasters was more suprising.

 

I think more Scoutmasters and Advisors should become aware of what NYLT is, select appropriate candidates to attend, and utilize their skills after their return. It seems most of our forum members in this thread is aware of NYLT and are sending their Scouts. But I think there is a confusion with most Scouters which don't understand and don't appreciate the value of NYLT.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[moosetracker 132]

BDPT00 - Ok the Explorers was wrong, are sea scouts welcomed? Just thought there was a 3rd group, it was more of a melting pot.. This is my first year on the training staff, all I know about the choosing of the staff, is that a list of possible staff members was made up by the Course director (having input from many so he learned of good canidates from districts he in not involved with).. The list was passed around the Table of the District trainers table for all us DT's to look at, some people were advised to be removed because they were not reliable, or for some reason. Then the remaining list was voted on for approval. Then someone said it had to go some place else (don't remember, but I think national, so I think the voting part was done.) The course director then went off to ask those on the list if they had the time.. This year he had to come back to the table for a much smaller second list, because of the fact with the economy some were out of jobs, and though they had the time now, could not guarentee the time for the 2 weekends, as if they got jobs, they would probably not have the time to take off from the new job. That is the election part I am talking about, maybe it is a unique process to our council..

If people were Scribes multiple years, then they were asked/invited by each course director to be on the staff. I know they wanted someone with computing skills for it, but since it is only word, excel & SQL I don't think it is that hard to find those skills, so not sure if that is why the re-ask a person to be staff for the same position. I would imagine much harder is finding a Quartermaster who needs the skills of a restraunt chef. I am unsure though if anyone has been staffed as Quartermaster multiple times. There are 2 scribe positions & I guess they are not equal positions, this year I am not "head" scribe, but "underling" scribe (don't really know true names, they are both listed scribe, but .. Also there is a scribe position that looks like it is not a true staff position, (so no bead), that is "photographer" scribe.. That might be why people become scribe multiple years, they take on a different scribe position, or are there without being officially on staff.

So as you guys say, maybe this is not a hard and fast rule, but rather it is a "suggestion".. That our council follows pretty well.. The two training chairs one is "mentor" and one is "medical Represenative". The one who is "mentor" has been so previously, (I have a few staff lists), don't know about the "medical Represenative" if they have done so previously.. But those ladies will be there helping out whether officially on staff or not, like my husband who has only been on staff once, as his job is too demanding for him to be on it more times, but he is a kitchen elf year after year after year, as are a few other "unofficial" kitchen elfs (Husband has the weekends, but not time to be off Thursday/Friday of both weekend courses.)

[moosetracker 132]

BDPT- also Yes.. Definately NYLT is what is currently being run, it is a weeklong course at camp..

 

Crew21 - Your info on NYLT is interesting in the fact that the scouts are not told what it is all about.. You kindof made a little lightbulb go off in my head of what someone was trying to emulate when they made a total mess of the Trail-to-Eagle.. And most likely the kids who were on staff were the NYLT crew.. I thought the staff was excellent from the little I saw of the presentations they made, their enthusiasm, their working with the participants of the Trail-to-Eagle.. But, the waiting for parents to leave, then turning on the boys and saying "Surprise!" "We aren't giving you the trail-to-Eagle, you signed up for, but something else.. We won't tell you what it is, you just have to follow our orders and do what we say".. Let me tell you ALL the scouts of that course were NOT happy.. If I come to a Leadership course and you tell me up front that I will not know what the course is about until I go through it, ok.. I will be on board. The kids really should be too, they should at least realize they have signed up for a leadership course, not your typical Summer course program.. If I go to a course to work on Eagle required Meritbadges and you tell me Surprise, you aren't doing what you came here to do, instead you are getting a leadership course.. I will not be happy.. But, for all the grumpy and angry scouts that were there, these guys were very good with dealling with the grumpy, upset individuals, but they followed the course directors requests to a T.. My son left the course hating the week, hating the course, but really liking the staff (except for the course director, who would not listen to the protests from ALL the participants, and would not change the course to accept the demands from the customer.)

 

I do admire those who staff NYLT.. They really have learned how to deal with people who are not happy or on board with the program. You are right, it takes a certain kind of person.. And/or a certain kind of Course Director or SM to teach the youth who staff to be great presenters and people persons..

 

My son never took NYLT.. He thought about it very young, but was persuaded to wait until older. By the time he was older, he decided he really didn't want to be SPL but perfered things like historian & Quartermaster.. So then had no desire to take the course.

 

Being year one on the Training commitee, I am just beginning to learn what it is all about.