Scout stealing? how would you handle?

[Exibar 10]

Wow Scoutnut many questions ;-)

 

The extra cans were just that, extra that I brought. I like to have little games around the campfire, I usually bring some treats that I'll pack in. Usually it's a big bag of candy/lollypops/etc. I was going to use the extras in that manner.

 

This Backpacking trip each participant was accountable for their own supplies, including food. Usually it's by patrols, but this trip was the first that the troop did that was an honest backpacking trip. Each boy packed in their own gear, and was responsible for themselves. They would have been allowed to share the burden if they asked, such as if a scout didnt' have his own tent one scout could have packed the poles and the other the tent, that type of thing. None asked, and they all have their own tents and sleeping gear.

I was quite clear during the planning of this trip that every scout was to fend for themselves. Each scout was to backpack in their own supplies and gear. Meals were approved ahead of time, and had to be good square meals. They were allowed to bring any other treats they wanted for themselves as well.

The trip really did go well, we all had an awesome time, I just wish that Saturday night didn't have to end the way it did.

The scouts did not know what the Crackerbarrel had in store. All the supplies for the crackerbarrel were with the other supplies myself and my CC brought in earlier. The other supplies consisted of items the scouts were getting for primitive firebuilding and knife sharpening and leatherworking. This consisted of a black locker box that I had everything in. I left the bag with remaining cans right in front of this locker box. There was no question that the stuff in that area was not community property. I would not have batted an eyelash if the food was for all the troop, no issue there ;-)

 

It's not that it was 2 cans of soda that I'm concerned with, it's the taking of something that's not theirs. Right now if the scout were to come foward, I would not be angry I'd give the usual "stealing is wrong" speach and thank him for coming foward. I was certainly more upset about the scout not coming foward and owning up for his actions.

 

Why am I starting to feel like I was chasing a gallon of strawberries???

[Exibar 10]

yes, this is exactly what I'll do if there's a next time.

 

"The one thing i would have done differently, and might have changed everything is if you asked the "thief" to think about it and that they had 24 hours to come forward to you privately OR that they could talk to the PL or SPL in the same confidence and without fear of repercussion while in the field. "

 

I guess if no-one comes foward there's a problem. I'd just have to keep it in the back of my head among the cobwebs and keep an eye out in the future... But, no-one other than the culpret and myself would knwo that they didn't come foward...

 

Honest mistakes happen, of course and I would have been compeletely fine with it.

 

I did give the boys an "out" that I failed to mention. I asked them all to close their eyes and that the person that took the cans could raise his hand and I'd talk with them later. no-one raised their hands...

 

"praise in public, punish in private" are words to keep near and dear for sure... but how do you "punish in private" if you don't know who to punish...

 

 

I also know one thing for sure... next time I'll use Ginger Ale! I never heard of any scouts willingly want to drink Ginger Ale! LOL :-)

 

yis,

Mike B

[shortridge 184]

I saw a similar problem handled poorly when I worked on staff at a provisional "trail to Eagle"-type camp. There was a small subgroup of Scouts who behaved incredibly poorly - I assume they felt free to misbehave due to the absence of their own leaders.

 

In one instance, someone defecated in a plastic bag, sealed it and tossed into the swimming pool. The camp director immediately closed the pool for all swimming activities except BSA Lifeguard training - not for sanitary reasons (it was sealed securely), but clearly and explicitly as punishment.

 

Then, at one meal, one table of Scouts crammed a plastic drinking pitcher so tightly full of bread crusts, scraps of food, paper items and utensils that when it was held upside down, nothing came out. It was discovered when someone dropped it off at the kitchen for cleaning. The camp director held everyone in the dining hall for more than an hour, canceling all programs until someone came forward.

 

Both bear some similarities to the OP's situation. In both cases, there were only a handful of individuals - or perhaps just one person - who knew the truth about what went on. In both cases, the entire group was punished for the actions of a few, including those who knew nothing about the misbehavior. And I'd wager that both cases also left a very foul taste in the mouth of the innocent Scouts.

 

If memory serves, the "trail to Eagle" camp lasted only about a year after that.

[moosetracker 132]

You had missing strawberrys Too !!!

 

I don't think anyone is beating you up too bad.. It is always wonderful to have hindsight from us armchair warriors..

 

But, none of us are perfect, and we all have our share of mistakes in the field..

 

Yeah the talk in private would only be if you give the person who took it time to come forward.. I would also not recommend calling him a theif until you hear the story.. The branding of theif before they are even allowed to explain might give them pause..

 

Just that you are highly disappointed. You are feeling a lack of trust, due to the issue.. And you would like the one who did the deed to come forward.

 

Let them have the option to explain before labeling thievery.. Though it does sound like things were well explained, unlike my example of the Adult training, where being new I had to admit to myself, I did not foresee the adults looking at my equipment as community property.. Next time I plan to outline that I expected them to all bring the items they need (they do know what is being cooked..) That I am open to borrowing from me if they forgot an item or two, but would like them to approach me and ask, so I know what to chase down, and who has borrowed the item..

[evmori 11]

I also note that the mandatory exercise skirts exceedingly fine the following guidance of the National Council:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Hazing prohibited. Physical hazing and initiations are prohibited and may not be included as part of any Scouting activity.

 

"Bullying prohibited. Verbal, physical, and cyber bullying are prohibited in Scouting.

 

"Constructive discipline. Discipline used in Scouting should be constructive and reflect Scoutings values. Corporal punishment is never permitted."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Really? You could say the same thing about kitchen or latrine clean up! That slope is way to slippery

 

And if you feel that way, John, how do you feel about the OA Ordeal?

[The Blancmange 67]

 

Really? You could say the same thing about kitchen or latrine clean up! That slope is way to slippery

It's a grey line, and the punishments mentioned are somewhere near that line. In my opinion, they do not cross it, but I am sure there are others who disagree.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I think I am the King of Anti-Hazing, or at the very least a member of the Royal Court and I never thought anything wrong, bad, or hazing in Exibar's accounting.

 

If actions have consequences, then actions have consequences.

 

I have to admit, were it I, I may be breaking camp and returning the whole lot of the trip home at 3 am rather than hang out with thieves and liars

 

May be one of the reasons I have never been scoutmaster

[qwazse 4342]

Try not to let this stuff eat at you, on the bright side ...

 

It doesn't sound like any boys went home crying to mamma, "Mr. Exibar called me a thief!" This keeps it from becoming a bigger production than it really was.

 

You have an opportunity to talk to the older boys about "what went well, what went wrong, what I would do differently?" Maybe after the SPL and JASMs run bed-check on the next campout, you can have them come back to the campfie and discuss a few things in that framework.

 

One of these days there will be a very funny campfire skit about this. You'll be the brunt of some really good inside jokes!

 

P.S. - You probably don't want them to know you've been talking to the likes of us about it.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

I recall a situation where I overreacted as Scoutmaster, nearly thirty years ago.

 

I was driving a car full of Boy Scouts home from a Scout Camp. One of the best and most engaging Scouts in the troop said he was going to engage in some kind of bad behavior as a way of distracting me as the driver (can't remember the details now).

 

 

I pulled over and admonished him about that. I didn't holler and shout, but I overreacted to what might have been a joke. I might have said he needed to promise not to do that.

 

The Scout was offended by that, and said he didn't want to drive with me, that he'd call his parents to come pick him up.

 

Well, you can't really argue with someone who wants out. I drove him to a place with a phone. I apologized for overreacting to his provocation. I think he called his mother but I wound up driving him home, about forty miles from where we were camping.

 

Sometimes people make poor judgments. I can tend to overeact in conflict situations, so I try to be careful about that especially in Scouting.

 

Just as a general rule, I'd be cautious when you are reacting emotionally to some deeply held value ("stealing" or whatever) Reacting emotionally can lead you into making mistakes and poor judgments.

 

The mother of that Scout looked me up on the internet a few months ago. Her son recently accepted a faculty position at an Ivy League university. I was glad to hear that --- he was a terrific kid.

 

 

As I think about that now, a good way of handling that would have been to tell the Scouts that the kind of torture they must not inflict on me was singing the "Greasy, grimy, gopher guts" song, a favorite of this Scout. I no doubt would have been harmlessly serenaded for the rest of the trip home.

 

However, it took me thirty years to come up with this solution!

 

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Ed,

 

The current Ordeal is so namby-pamby that it's almost a lovefest. In 1970, when I Ordealed, by current standards, some of the things the Ordeal team did pushed the envelope of hazing. Note I said by current standards. By 1970 standards, they were all in-bounds.

[hotdesk 10]

When I first read the post, no one else had responded yet. I felt, at the time and still do, that the reaction was over the top.

 

As an Eagle Scout, former Chartered Organization Rep., and current Committee Chairman and having served as Co-Director of an After-School program for "at-risk" youth, I would have issues if my Cubmaster or Scoutmaster handled the situation the way it was.

 

First and foremost, I understand the Scout Law. However, I feel that each action needs an appropriate reaction/consequence.

 

From the scout's prespective, how are you going to act if they did something serious and needed your help? What if they did really steal something from another person, got caught at school with tobacco, or something along those lines? I would want my scouts to be able to talk to their Unit Leader. Your reaction to two missing pop cans almost certainly destroys any possiblity of that happening.

 

Not once were the scouts given an opportunity to actually explain the situation to you. You expected them to admit it in front of their peers, that won't happen. Allow for some time for them to come to you, one-on-one, before the next step is taken.

 

Give it an hour, put the cooking of the first desert on hold. Let them know that you'll continue with the night's activity after someone comes to you to let you know what occured. Before you send them away, explain, in simple terms, why your upset. Explain that you take the Scout Law serious.

 

During the hour that your waiting for the scout to admit what he did, let the boys do their own thing. Set some boundaries on this before you end your original discussion. Whatever they do should be quite and calm (read a book, take a hike, etc.).

 

If no one comes forward, at the end of the hour pull your scouts together. Tell them that your ashamed that someone wasn't trustworthy and now hasn't been curtous. Tell them that you won't be cooking the desert and that they should think about what the Scout Law means to them. Perhaps have each scout take a point of the Scout Law and expalin it, in their own terms, what it means.

 

After that, leave the situation alone. Let them continue their quite activities.

[xlpanel 10]

I think the missing cans could have easily been a scout or leader realizing that since they watched you make the cobbler and there are left overs, even if they are sitting somewhere in your stuff, that you don't really mind them getting used.

 

In fact, someone could have seen it as a favor as in LNT pack-in/pack-out they were lessening your weightload for the return trip.

 

If you really had no desire to punish the person who drank the cans, the best course of action would have been to ask for the person who drank them to give you the empty cans so you can dispose of them properly.

 

That way you can find out who drank the soda and slip in a statement such as "please dont drink soda or other supplies that you think are leftover without asking again".

[desertrat77 1144]

A lesson I learned from a much respected squadron commander from many years ago: "When you punish, you have to balance the needs of the individual with needs of the organization...punish too harsh, and you've harmed the individual...punish too light, and you've harmed the organization."

 

In a case like this, we have to ask: do we carpet bomb (punish all) or precision bomb (seek and punish the wrong doers)?

 

This story hit close to home....

 

Summer camp, '70s. We cooked all our meals in camp with gear the camp issued us. Several patrols, lots of gear.

 

It's the last full day...we pre-inventory our gear and missing is a metal measuring cup, probably a 30 cent value.

 

The SM comes unglued. We are thieves, careless too...much lecturing...and we are restricted to camp. Tents and personal gear are shook down, and re-shook down. A PL offers to pay for the cup out of his pocket. No dice, it's the original cup or nothing.

 

Then we sit in silence in camp, and miss dinner (cooked by staff elsewhere). Still sitting in silence as the sun set.

 

Then we miss the closing camp ceremonies and fire, where the individual and patrol awards were to be handed out. Including a special presentation planned for a buddy of mine who did three mile swims that week. No one attends. We go to bed.

 

Did the SM make his point? Yes. Was the cup recovered? No. The legacy of that SM? You can guess! (That was his MO, established long before the Case of the Missing Cup.)

 

For the case at hand, I think punishment was administered too early. I'm a law and order guy, but to PT everybody and recite the scout law before we know who dun it? Seems a bit much.

 

But I say that with humbleness, because when I was an ASM and SM, I made some poor decisions when it came to crime and punishment. Sometimes I punished when a word to the wise would have been appropriate.

[acco40 95]

I think many adults play too much detective and not enough Scoutmaster. When things like this incident happen my approach is to have either myself or the SPL handle it.

 

In this particular situation, I would have handled it. I would simply have the SPL assemble the troop and explain that due to some of the pop (no soda up here) sprouting legs, the cobbler would not be forthcoming. I think it is counter productive to try and find out who may have "done the deed."

 

At summer camp one year we signed up to have a hay ride. It turned out that there wasn't quite enough room for all who wanted to go so I said youth have first choice (Scouts vs. Scouters) and al lthe boys could fit if no adults went.

 

When they returned both the SPL and the adult driving the tractor (horse if you will) informed me of the bad behavior of the Scouts. I was glad when the SPL asked if he could handle the situation - only a small percentage of the Scouts misbehaved. I was glad and of course let him handle it. His "tactics" we much more "harsh" than I would have used but hey, I needed to show support and in the end it earned the SPL much respect. Yes, it was border line hazing but I've seen adults do much worse.

[evmori 11]

John,

Hazing has always been prohibited.