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Scoutfish

Two Deep question

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Okay, dumb question time again.

 

The way I read 2 deep, I am assuming that it pretty much applies to outings. trips, xcamping. etc...and not den or troop meetings.

 

Granted, it is a rare thing to have onlyt one adult in a den meeting or troop meeting. But you know it can happen.

 

Well, a while back, one of our Webelos ADL's stepped ot of the den meeting to use the restroom. This left only the Webelos DL in the room with 7 Webelos scouts. Well, the COR just happened to walk by, see only the DL as the only adult, and told me I needed to find another adult to sit in until the ADL came back.

 

I told him that I didn't think this was a case where 2 deep applied, but I didn't have a problem going in there either.

 

 

 

"Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activitieseven those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities."

 

"No one-on-one contact. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmasters conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths"

 

Not specifically prohibited, but not specifically mentioned either.

 

Again, this is the only time that I am aware of it happening, but still don't think it applies as a BSA rule, If it's a CO rule..then fine - like I said, I have no qualms about having to have 2 adults at all times.

 

But I do want clarification just to be clear! :)

 

 

Thanks!

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Your reading is correct. You don't need two adults in the room with every group of Scouts. Otherwise, you'd have to have two adults riding in every car of Scouts heading to camp. Just avoid one-on-one contact.

 

But if the CO wants you to have stronger leadership rules, then what the CO says, goes ... that's their choice.

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Yeah, If the COR wants us to do it because it's a CO rule , I have no problem doing it.

 

I just want the COR to know that it's not a BSA rule.

 

 

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One additional point ... I think it's really good practice to have two adults present at all times, especially with Cubs. Let's say DL Joe suffers a heart attack, and he's the only adult present. What do the kids do? But if ADL Sally is there, she can take charge.

 

I don't think that's really a problem in your situation - as I read it, your dens all meet at the same time at the same location, and there are plenty of adults around?

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"Let's say DL Joe suffers a heart attack, and he's the only adult present. What do the kids do? But if ADL Sally is there, she can take charge."

 

The cubs may be a little traumatized by watching Joe writh in agony on the floor in front of them, but thank goodness Sally is there to help them finish those electives! :-)

 

\\sarcasm off\\

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That is an unworkably narrow interpretation. You did have two deep leadership; i.e., two adults there for the event. One adult was just temporarily absent. What happened if the adult left the room for 1 second then popped back in? Do you need to find a replacement leader for that 1 second? Now that's a ridiculous scenario but you see where I'm going with this.

 

It would be different if the ADL had to leave the activity completely, but as long as he/she is still part of the activity, you have fulfilled the requirement.

 

I'm not sure what the whole situation/relationship is with your CO, as it seems like he must be pretty involved to be there at a meeting and know enough about YPT to be dangerous, but it might be worth revisiting the issue, as it's guaranteed to happen again in the future.

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I don't know if it is a symptom of poor drafting or what, but this confusion between the 2-deep leadership rule and the ban on one-on-one contact is pretty common.

 

I can't imagine that Scoutfish's COR has been on too many outings with the scouts, otherwise he would realize how unworkable his strained interpretation is. He is, in essence requiring either 3-deep leadership for outings, or else leaders with very large bladders. People can't go to the bathroom without "finding a replacement?" Give me a break.

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As someone else has said, a leader going to the bathroom does not mean that 2 deep has been abandoned. The requirement does not say they must stay in line of sight at all times. If my associate is in the building, or on the property, I think we are fine.

 

2 deep is there to provide accountability of adults to each other, to protect the children from predictors, and give adults protection from false reports. Nothing in the above example seems to have deprived anyone of these benefits.

 

On a camping trip with 2 adults, you would have to hold on for 2 days if you need to use the bathroom, let alone 2 hours during a unit meeting. I think that this severely strains the intention of the 2 deep leadership rule.

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IMHO, the reason why "two deep" leadership is required is so that there will still be a leader present if one adult has to go to the bathroom.

 

If they really wanted to have two adults present at every moment, then they would have required "three deep" leadership, so that the three adults could still take turns going to the bathroom.

 

Since the COR was there, walking the halls of the building, he would have qualified as one of the two, IMHO, even if this was a "trip or outing". There is no requirement that they be in the same room at all times.

 

As others have pointed out, there is a completely separate rule against "one on one" contact. But as long as there are at least three people in the room--youth or adult--that rule is satisfied.

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Can't resist ...

 

2 deep is there to provide accountability ... to protect the children from predictors

 

Because heaven help us if -- in front of impressionable youth -- an adult starts prophesying without another one present!

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During one of my last Webelos den meetings my assistant den leader left to go to my house where all the other parents were having a good time drinking beer and crafting the boys AOL arrows! That was news to me and I held the den meeting by my lonesome (only adult) as I help them prepare for a skit for the B&G / Crossover banquet.

 

Two-deep leadership is not required for den meetings per the BSA.

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Sorry, wasn't trying to bail. My son somehow locked the computer up and crshed it.

How is it he can click the mouse 1 time, and do as much damage as it would take me 4 hours and 236 clicks to do the same thing?

 

Anyways, Our COR is very active with the pack, troop, and ship chartered to our CO.

 

He was at one time, the CM and later, the SM...but that was long ago. Way long ago.

 

He's a great guy, very supportive and willing to help any way he can. Great personality too.

 

But when we decided to raise or pack dues to $40.00 from the previous $36.00 , he started talking about collecting either 0.25 or .50 cent den dues instead of raising the pack dues.

 

Great guy, but somehwat stuck in the past.

 

And of course, the misunderstanding between 1 on 1 and 2 deep.

 

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