Giving Up on Recruting Webelos

[Eagledad 2779]

>>Well, shazam! With that kind of positive attitude toward Cub Scouts, is it any wonder that trying to recruit those same scouts is not successful?

[83Eagle 11]

I think 83Eagle's baseball analogy fails in that when yeh look at Cub Scouting, da major features of boy scouting aren't present. Even in T-ball, yeh swing at balls and run bases and field grounders. It's recognizable as baseball, with accommodations for younger fellows.

 

The disconnect in many cub packs from boy scoutin' is that, aside from uniforms and promises, the rest isn't recognizable to youth or adults as scouting.

 

So in Cub Scouts, you go camping, work on advancements, and learn some simple scoutcraft like knot-tying. But with accomodations for the younger fellows like having the parents involved at every step of the way, allowing "Akela" to sign off on advancements, and not letting the youngun's go off on their own patrol.

 

The difference is that parents understand baseball because they see it and the differences between the "feeder" and the "advanced" program are clear. They see that the tee evolves into a pitcher, that "no outs" evolve into a scored game, and so on.

 

So if a disconnect exists between Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting, it's not because the programs are two entirely different animals, it's that the critical differences and evolutions between the two programs, grounded in the same principals, are not well understood.

 

And who's fault is that? I'm not going to cast blame, but I'm not going to accept blame either or quietly allow it to be laid on the boys who didn't "know better" than to join Cub Scouts.

 

[Kudu 186]

83Eagle writes:

 

Kudu has posted about his difficulty or inability to recruit outgoing Webelos

 

When was that?

 

In my retirement I no longer want to be a Scoutmaster, so I volunteer at the adult-run Troop down the street: At about 50 Scouts it is the biggest unit in the country, a mega-Troop by rural southern standards!

 

So now I get to see from the inside the kind of Troop that Cub Scout parents flock to because everything is just so nice and orderly

 

Cub Scouts is a filter.

 

I have my days free now, so I run the "outdoor" sessions of the Webelos program at the local Cub Scout camp.

 

One day last summer it was time to head to the pool but I was missing 3 Webelos Scouts. I found them sitting at a table staring defiantly at their plates.

 

A Den Mother told me that if they wanted to earn their swimming badge, they had to eat their crusts! Three of them had refused to do it!

 

How about that? After five years of Cub Scouts, these three boys still had their balls!

 

And we wonder why they leave.

 

In my former life as a Traditional Scoutmaster, the only problem I had recruiting Webelos was the one time I tried to use my public school presentation at a Crossover. I ended up scaring them all away with the promise of bears and rattlesnakes

 

So I talked to each one individually and got all but one of them to crossover into my Troop. That was NOT appreciated by most of the Cub Scout moms who had for a year been announcing with glee that their sons had "decided" to end at Arrow of Light and not crossover into Boy Scouts. In the end they won by keeping them away from summer camp the first year because (according to their dads) the moms decided they were "too young to be away from home."

 

When our "Feeder Pack" folded, I returned to recruiting in the Public Schools. No matter how much you hate Kudu, the objective truth is that the overwhelming, vast majority of sixth grade boys have either already dropped out of Cub Scouts, did not crossover, or knew better than to join Cub Scouts in the first place.

 

The dirty little secret that you will never learn from the BSA is that when you present Scouting as the kind of Scoutcraft adventure described in our 1916 Charter, 70% of these sixth-grade boys will (in front of their peers!) sign a list asking you to call their parents so they can be a Boy Scout.

 

Of the total audience, 28% have parents that will let them register with the BSA just to go camping (without ANY promise of office leadership theory, homework citizenship, or Eagle on their business resume).

 

For me that 28% translated to about 15 new registered Boy Scouts per year.

 

So Scouting could be just as popular NOW as it was before the introduction of Leadership Development. But to BSA millionaires and militant Webelos III dads, the two million Boy Scouts who left the BSA when we changed our mission from Scoutcraft to indoor office leadership theory were simply "not the right kind."

 

Simply Put: Two million Boy Scouts did not see as role-models, men who sit in office cubicles and fancy themselves to be "leadership" experts.

 

They refused to eat their crusts!

 

Ask ANY Wood Badge enthusiast: Bill Hillcourt's Scoutcraft program, which made boys WANT to join Scouting (and STILL makes boys WANT to join Scouting) is "never coming back" no matter what the cost is to membership numbers, so stop whining!

 

83Eagle writes:

 

But then he couples that with what a good idea it would be if Cub Scouting wouldn't exist

 

I never said that!

 

I said that if we could move Cub Scouting over to Little League, then red-blooded American Boys would grow up hating baseball instead of Scouting.

 

Win-Win!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

Want to recruit an extra 15 Boy Scouts per year with the Promise of Adventure?

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

[83Eagle 11]

But then he couples that with what a good idea it would be if Cub Scouting wouldn't exist

 

I never said that!

 

Baloney!

 

And I quote, with elipses for ease of reference, but you can see it all in context at: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=300190&p=1

 

 

SeattlePioneer writes:

 

If we weren't going to do anything except the program as it existed in 1916 we would:

...

2) have no Cub Scout program

 

To which Kudu writes:

 

Good riddance.

 

I for one value the years I have spent with my son in the Cub Scout program, and he feels the same. But apparently he would have been better served just waiting around until 6th grade for someone to come to talk to him about Boy Scouts.

(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[SeattlePioneer 144]

>

 

 

Well, I think Kudu's analysis is wrong here. It's not that these children kept their balls, but rather that they were just in the process of developing them.

 

I would characterize the mistake Kudu describes as the missplaced use of parental power when it's just not appropriate. It might be appropriate for a stubborn four year old but not appropriate for a 4th or 5th grader.

 

 

I can't say I have observed this kind of error in quite such dramatic terms in Cub Scouting itself, but variations of it are common enough in both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

 

The most commen example I think is the parent who punishes a boy by refusing to allow him to go to a Scout meeting or activity. That is the real essence of the drama Kudu relates in his anecdote.

 

The even more fundamental error is the parent who refuses to let a boy grow up, take charge of his life and make mistakes.

 

Children of Cub Scout age aren't usually subject to that mistake by parents as much, because the the revolution of adolesence is not yet upon them. Adults are closer to gods for Cub Scout age children in terms of size and wisdom. Children that age aren't really ready to assert real independence by and large.

 

Boy Scouts is about how to take advantage of that independence and channel it in positive ways rather than have it become destructive rebellion.

 

And it's quite common for Boy Scout Troops to fail to do that job, often because parents don't want to let go, or don't understand the program just as Kudu suggests. We see posts and threads where that happens in a wide variety of ways all the time.

 

Therefore I might suggest that Cub Scouts does a more reliable job of providing an appropriate program for children as it's actually delivered than does Boy Scouts.

 

Cub Scouts is DESIGNED to be an adult led program (Webelos on the cusp of change). So you can't go wrong with Cub Scouts on that issue, by and large!

 

The concept of boy leadership for Boy Scouts is a much subtler concept, and there are plenty of parents and Scoutmasters who don't understand it or don't want to do it.

 

 

And while we're at it:

 

In my opinion the idea that Scouting is a program for youth is oversold. Scouting is also a program to coach parents in how to be loving and effective parents, although we don't talk about that very much.

 

I see angry and resentful children come into Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, and often parents don't have a clue as to how to deal with such children. If they stay in Scouting a year or two very often both the parent and child figure out better ways to do things. I have a Cub Scout now who has improved hugely in a couple of years.

 

But I don't think you can coach parents too directly on such things. You have to let parents observe and gradually understand and experiment with better methods over time.

 

If parents don't trust you to take their boys to summer camp, they probably aint going. Such fears may be honest or they may be contrived. Sometimes the fears that a youth is too immature are correct. But the parent is still the protector of their child, and I respect that, right or wrong.

 

And if Webelos parents don't trust you to be the Scoutmaster for their children, they are probably going elsewhere. I suspect those Webelos Dens Kudu has had a hard time recruiting may not quite trust him or his program with their children.

 

Perhaps Kudu's program IS more suitable for those 6th and 7th graders than for boys not yet out of 5th grade. If so, it may be a better program because of it, although not the best troop for Webelos dens to join. Just speculation of course.

[Kudu 186]

"I never said that!"

 

Yeah, I edited out the emoticon (I never said that! ) before I posted. The exclamation point still indicates hyperbole when followed with "I said that if we could move Cub Scouting over to Little League, then red-blooded American Boys would grow up hating baseball instead of Scouting."

 

83Eagle writes:

 

But apparently he would have been better served just waiting around until 6th grade for someone to come to talk to him about Boy Scouts.

 

Not to worry. If Wood Badge trained Little League dads, then in the sixth grade we would recruit him for "T-Ball for Teenagers," where he gets "LLWS" on his business resume by earning hat pins for homework citizenship and EDGE theory, without ever walking onto a field with a bat on his shoulder.

 

Modernists do have a point: Why bother learning how to swing bat? That skill became old-fashioned in the iron age. Its just a bunch of useless and arcane trivia that you'll never need. When was the last time you used a club to kill your dinner? Oh, last Tuesday?

 

I agree with most of SeattlePioneer's points, but especially:

 

Perhaps Kudu's program IS more suitable for those 6th and 7th graders than for boys not yet out of 5th grade.

 

The minimum age for Boy Scouts was once 12. I found that when I recruited sixth-graders in May (at the end of the school year when they were mostly 12 years old), they were much more mature than sixth-graders recruited in September. They took to the Old School Patrol Method right away.

 

Significantly, if they did not go to summer camp because of the short notice, they stuck with the program (in the summer we played Wide Games in the forests because the school gym was closed). I think you will find that 5th grade Webelos crossovers do NOT usually stick around if they skip summer camp the first year.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

84 Boy Scout Wide Games:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm

 

 

[83Eagle 11]

Well, Kudu, if that scouting thing doesn't pan out for ya, I think ya got a future in politics.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

>

 

 

Thank you Kudu, that's very kind. Frankly I'd rather find areas of agreement with you than be a logger heads. Perhaps we will be able to do more of that.

 

 

[83Eagle 11]

I know that one shouldn't get too worked up about things said online, and even less so when said by people you don't know personally, yet I woke up this morning trying to figure out why I still felt so insulted by this whole characterization of Cub Scouts. I mean, it's only natural when you've spent several years of your life putting in how many hours into something you know has value and then people use a broad brush to completely disparage what it is that you do and say that life would be so much better if only the program you're in didn't exist.

 

Well, as I sat here planning some final details for the 4th of our 5 cub scout campouts over the past year, I thought about the criticism about Cub Scouts being an "inside" program. I thought back to our snowshoe outing of last week, our snow tubing outing of about a month ago, and our compass course and geocaching outings of fall, and an outdoor park cleanup service project. Well, I will grant you that the Den meetings do incoroprate some boring "bookwork" stuff along with the types of things I've mentioned above. But then again, we're building model rockets at our Den meeting in April, and it's kinda impractical to launch them inside. It sure seems that we have a bit of an outdoor component to our program.

 

As far as scoutcraft goes, I considered how my son's den continues to learn knot tying. How we worked on different types of fire lays at our campouts. How the boys identified the essential gear to bring along on outdoor hikes. How we assembled basic first aid kits and learned how to use them. How the boys learned how to properly use a knife to earn their whittling chip. And ALL of the above are part of the official program, in case you aren't close to the Cub Scout program any longer, so it's not just our Den doing those things.

 

Now obviously, Cub Scouts is adult led, not boy led, by design--it has to be because of the ages of the boys involved. But the opportunity is there to prepare them for the transition. In my son's den, sometimes the adults set the itinerary, and sometimes the boys are asked to decide on different activities to do. Hence the rocket idea. But, true, the parents are more involved in making those activities happen than in a Troop.

 

So I will continue to argue that Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting are NOT completely different animals. The differences are of degree, not of substance. And, ultimately it comes down to the adults, whether it's in CS or BS. If adults simply have the cubbies cracking the books each week and if their biggest "outing" is the pinewood derby, then it's the decision of the leaders in that program, just like you can have troops that are "merit badge factories" or where adults take charge of the program.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

[83Eagle 11]

There is no secret. Start small and build. Actually our first was a "day into night" camp for our den a few years back where we started at lunch, outdoor flag ceremony, did campfire cooking, earned the flag football and hiking belt loops, and ended with a big bonfire after which everyone went home.

 

Made a big billboard of photos to display at the next pack meeting and all the other den boys said, "wow, I wish we could do that." I then volunteered to be the leader to take a group to district camp and we had just a few boys go. So, I did a multimedia presentation for the first pack meeting and this year we have 30 going even though there is no fundraising support.

 

Next was to offer to run Pack campouts. Got the CMs ok and got BALOO trained and off we went. Boys have fun, get the parents involved at the event, next thing you know you have your next campout committee.

 

The first few were a LOT of work on my part and I was pretty much a committee of one, but I knew it was the only way to get a sleepy Pack back out in the wild where it belongs.

 

Success breeds success. No secret there.

[83Eagle 11]

One more thing Seattle, since I guess I completely stole this thread. I go over the parents heads...to the boys. There aren't too many boys in a Pack that don't want to go camping. So make them sell it to the parents.

 

For instance, interest in a winter camp was running a little light. So I brought in a golf club, a whiffle ball, and an orange cone. Who can guess what this is for, I asked. Lots of answers. I'm not telling, you gotta come to winter camp to find out. Who wants to go sledding? Who wants to go snowshoeing? Who wants to sit in the cold snow around a warm campfire and eat s'mores and drink hot cocoa? Etc etc etc.

 

By that time the boys are in a frenzy...

 

"Well, you gotta make sure your family turns in their winter camp form!"

 

40 heads turn on a swivel to look at parents behind them...

 

Works better than passing out a flyer.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Thank you, 83 Eagle. I like it!

 

As Cubmaster I've been polite and promote outings primarily to parents rather than Cub Scouts. My theory has been that parents should decide and that whipping up the passions of Cub Scouts is an unfair tactic.

 

At our Monday Blue and Gold Dinner, I've encouraged Cub Scouts (everyone, really) to make and bring a mess kit they can also use at our June campout. Our main competition at the pack meeting will feature a den competition to see which den can set up a self supporting tent the fastest and get all their den members inside with the zippers zipped up ---again with an eye towards promoting camping.

 

But perhaps that's a mistake. I have some parents very engaged with the program, and others who remain rather detached.

 

I have twin Tiger Cubs who joined in the fall. The parents missed notifying me in time to get their Bobcat award to them at our December Pack meeting, and I just received an e-mail from the parents saying they wont be at our Monday Blue and Gold dinner and pack meeting.

 

I'd be interested in other methods, ideas and opinions.

[83Eagle 11]

Yeah, but the program is Cub Scouts, not Parent Scouts. Enthusiasm is infectious. Obviously not everybody can make every camp so I end every pitch with, "don't worry, if you can't make winter camp, come to spring camp," etc. You don't want to punish kids who have uninvolved parents, but at the same time parents are supposed to be involved so we're not going to strip down the program to the detriment of families who want to jump in feet first. And our parents and committee are on board with the direction being taken.

 

Also, when we have activities, I try to find ones where I can give parents either/or choices to help, not yes/no. In other words, "parents, you can decide whether you want to help out at station a, b, or c." There are still one or two holdouts that sit on the bleachers but it's to the point where they look like the odd ducks out. And I'm toying with the idea of not pulling out the bleachers......

 

 

[True Believer 10]

There are two issues which occur when recruiting from Cub Packs: One is the parent issue thoroughly discussed above. The Second is the Webelos program itself. Just as the Cub Scout program is very different from the Boy Scout program, the Cub Scout program is very different from the Webelos program.

We have three packs in our area. One does the Webelos program correctly: no more arts and crafts, more outdoor activities, joint events with local troops, use of a "patrol" instead of a "den", etc. One does not do the program correctly, outright refuses, and they lose most of their members after Webelos one. the other waivers from year to year. If the Cub Leadership fails to prep the boys for Boy Scouts and follow the program, all is for naught.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

True Believer,

 

Show me in the program literature where Webelos are to do Patrols vice Dens, please.

 

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/Parents/About/pandm.aspx

 

Hmmm: The DEN Method:

2. Belonging to a Den

The dena group of six to eight boys who are about the same ageis the place where Cub Scouting starts. In the den, Cub Scouts develop new skills and interests, they practice sportsmanship and good citizenship, and they learn to do their best, not just for themselves but for the den as well.

 

The tenth PURPOSE of Cub Scouting is to prepare youth for Boy Scouting, but that does not obviate the Den Method.

 

Oh, and the leader is the Webelos DEN leader:

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack/webdl.aspx(This message has been edited by John-in-Kc)