CO Pack does not support CO Troop

[Kamelian 10]

What does one do when the CO's Pack leaders won't encourage or permit the boys in the Pack to visit or camp with the boys in the CO's Troop, and also actively discourage them from considering any other troop in town? The CO's pack leaders are Troop Snobs who have spent the last 5 ot 6 years actively discouraging the Webelos from considering any troop in town other than the troop the leaders want the kids to go to.

 

Part of the problem is that many of the leaders involved this pack are graduates of the troop which they have already pre-selected for the boys to move into, and this happens to be the troop generally recognized by everyone in town to be an 'eagle factory' which pushes the boys to make Eagle by the time they turn 14 (or else they face the real possibility of being dropped from the unit). I've found that boys who are pushed to make Eagle by 14 have both an advantage and a disadvantage. The advantage is that, yeah, they get it done before they get distracted by girls & cars. The disadvantage is that they don't fully absorb the value and meaning of the program, the Oath, and the Law in the process of being hustled through at top speed, unless they are the ones who are doing the hustling of their own accord.

 

Our troop leaders have been informed in the past, by some concerned parents, that boys who have had the nerve to indicate they wish to go elsewhere, into a different troop, are treated as if they're idiots, and therefore are unworthy of any further attention in the pack. Apparently, the only acceptable alternative in these leaders' eyes is for the boy to quit scouting altogether.

[BadenP 93]

Kamelian

 

That's what your COR is for to deal with this kind of problem. It sounds like you all need to sit down together and hash things out, and if necessary the COR can effect the needed changes,set some guidelines, including replacing some leaders, if necessary.

[ScoutNut 147]

What Baden said, and the sooner the better.

 

In addition, your Pack's leaders can not stop parents from taking their own children on visits to any Troop they wish to.

 

By "unworthy of any further attention in the pack", what exactly do you mean? Do the Webelos den leaders ban these boys from attending meetings? Do they not give them credit for requirements they have completed? Do they not give the boys awards/pins/etc that they have rightfully earned?

 

If they do not drop them from the Pack charter, allow them to attend meetings, and present them with any, and all awards they have earned, then what Troops the Webelos visit individually, and what Troop they decide to join, is up to the individual families. These "concerned parents" need to get off the stick and look around on their own.

 

There is also nothing stopping your Troop from sending out info on the Troop, and inviting 4th, and 5th grade Webelos to a Troop meeting. Information does not all have to filter thru the Pack/den leaders. Send it thru school, or since you both have the same charter organization, ask the COR for the mailing address of all of the Webelos.

[John-in-KC 311]

I tend to agree with BadenP.

 

That said:

- Does the Troop have a healthy program, using the Aims and Methods of Boy Scouting?

- Does the Pack have a healthy program, using the Aims and Methods of Cub Scouting?

Those two questions are simply the 50,000 foot view for looking at units.

- Are there personality conflicts between the two sets of leaders? This is where the COR can assert the Chartered Partner's ownership of the units.

 

Frankly, the best units I've seen, even sharing a Chartered Partner, get their recruits because they have great program for the youth. Parents, (and hopefully their kids) have complete freedom of choice in evaluating the next unit in the Scouting cycle. They'll see through smokescreens and bovine scatology if its there.

 

So, if the partnership is not working naturally, it's time to ask "Why?" ... which takes us back to what BadenP stated: IH/COR have a heart to heart talk with the Pack and Troop leadership.

 

[Kamelian 10]

Old COR was worse than worthless - but he's been gone 2 or 3 years, thank Goodness. The present COR is the type who is never around - he won't return phone messages or make himself available to sign forms when needed. We spent over 3 weeks trying to track him down to sign the recharter papers, and some new member applications. We've been having to go to the IH for signatures, and she or her assistant have been very good about helping - but the IH is out on surgical leave at the moment.

 

I forgot to say earlier that certain pack leaders under our CO have been responsible for passing propaganda to the effect that "no other troop in town is as good as" the Chosen Troop. The boys & their families are apparently being informed by these leaders that the Chosen Troop is a major stepping stone to the boys' future success in the world, and the other troops in town are nothing but poor imitators. One pack leader with a lot of local political clout has apparently been very vocal about this, and has been a major force in the push to send Cubs to this other unit.

 

By "further attention" I mean that we (in the troop) have been given the distinct impressiion, by some of the Cub boys and their families, that the Cubs who do not show an excited interest in going to the Chosen Troop pre-selected by the pack leaders, they do get their awards & such that they've earned, but they don't get praised for them or fawned over or receive the kind of overt attention the other boys receive who have indicated their willingness to go to the Chosen Troop. In some cases, they are treated as if they are materially and personally less important than those who go along with selecting the Chosen Troop.

 

Our troop has sent out invitations to this pack for camping outings, lock-ins for movies & games, afternoons at the bowling alley or skating rink, and other stuff, and it's been sent to the leaders of this pack, but parents we've talked to say they never heard anything about it. The information apparently isn't getting to the boys and their parents. We've also had difficulty getting information about their meetings and special activities, or responses with regard to assigning Den Chief scouts.

[Twocubdad 665]

First, be nice:

 

-- Go with the assumption they are your brother pack and OF COURSE the leaders are going to be cooperative. Flood them with invitations and information about troop activities. CC the COR on everything, especially anything unbecoming which comes back from the pack.

 

-- Recruit Den Chiefs for the pack and ask the Cubmaster to please coordinate Den Chief assignments between the troop and pack. CC the COR on all correspondence.

 

-- If your CO is a church, work with the minister to participate in Scout Sunday services, then invite the pack to participate.

 

-- Make sure all troop activities are promoted through the CO, expecially if it is a church. Have your troop meetings posted on all the CO's calendars. When the troop does something special including new Eagles, make sure it's in the CO's newsletter.

 

-- When a member of the charter organization makes Eagle, or even the son of a member, ask to do a short presentation during a meeting of the CO or worship service, if appropriate.

 

-- Recruit hard through the CO. Do open house recruitment nights and promote them heavily to the CO membership. For churches, you can get pre-printed bulletin inserts. You may get a few boys who are not currently Cubs, but you can also directly recruit the boys who are in the pack. Yes, you definitely play off the loyalty to the chartered organization.

 

 

If being nice doesn't work, try it again. Keep being nice right up until it's time not to be nice. Then go guerrilla.

 

Come up with means to get around the filter of the pack leaders and go directly to the den leaders and cub parents:

 

-- Ask the CO for bulletin board space, preferably in the same meeting space as the pack, to promote troop activities. Prominently display all the fun, cool stuff your troop does. Post large invitations to troop open houses. You may want to consider a covered, lockable BB.

 

-- Show up, invited or not, at pack committee meetings and distribute flyers for various troop programs, like campouts and open houses where the cubs are invited, the availability of den chiefs, etc. Don't engage the other leaders, just hand the flyers to some guy on the back row, ask them to pass these around, wave and say, "gotta run!"

 

-- Schedule troop activities for the same time as pack and den meetings. Don't be distruptive, but do really cool stuff in plain view of the Cub Scout. A monkey bridge, signal tower, or even just a camp fire.

 

-- Build a mailing/email list of Cub families from various sources. If you ask your DE for a list of all Cubs in the town for recruiting purposes, he should provide them to you. Send information about the troop, include invitations to open houses, directly to the pack families.

 

-- Put flyers on cars in the parking lot outside pack meetings.

 

-- Ask the CO to allow the troop to build an obstacle course on the property. Out of safety concerns, the troop and CO will agree that the course will only be used when the Boy Scouts are available to supervise.

 

 

Of course the best revenge is always living well. Run a great program. Make sure your guys are having fun

[EagleBeaver 10]

Twocubdad said "...ask your DE for a list of all Cubs in the town for recruiting purposes, he should provide them to you."

 

I'd say that's your best bet. Our DE even gives us which Webelos crossed over and which ones dropped. I use that in September to contact those that took the summer off.

 

Direct contact to a scout and his family works better than email or paper through a pack. It just takes your time to call Mr. Smith and let him know Johnny is welcome to stop by your troop's meeting/hike/activity/ next week. Any visiting Webelos scout at our meetings gets a 'troop nickel' to take home - they remember the troop number and can use it at our trading post if they join.

 

If you're really serious about it, gather your scouts together with the list of Webelos and have each of them take a couple to call. Coach them on what they should say and let 'em go. Hearing from some excited, older scouts is much more impressive to the Webelos and his parents.

 

You could set up an afternoon or evening activity that all your scouts would love to do - bowling, pizza, sundaes, wallclimbing, a movie, whatever - and only scouts with a targetted guest get to go.

 

To encourage Webelos to camp with your troop, having a campout close to town with the option of just coming for the day or one night can show your flexibility.

 

Holding a 'Scout Skills' day for all Webelos in town to fulfill their Arrow of Light requirements and learn about Boy Scouts can be a great tool to help them decide to continue in scouting. Rather than having it be a recruiting event just for your troop, inviting each local troop to do a couple skills may make it more palatable for everyone.

 

None of this involves any pack - it's your troop reaching out to eligible boys.

 

Scout On

http://ScoutChallenge.com

 

[Scoutfish 16]

Kam, there is nothing tha says that you cannot talk to the parents yourself. Any negativity that this might seem to cause is already cancelled out by the negativity of the pack leaders and their refusal to work for the Cub SCouts interests over their own interests.

 

What night/ time does the pack meet? What night times do the troop meet?

 

Nothing says you cannot print out flyers to the pack members or advertise at the doors before or after pack meetings.

 

And the thing is, no matter what any of the pack leadershoips says...you are not doing anything but correcting a major dis-service that the packleadership is creating in the first place.

 

It's bad enough to hold back info, but another to treat scouts as lesser individuals or snubb them for having a different view or opinion.

 

Now, I am just a CubMaster myself, but don't take it to mean I am supporting that they stay within the CO. I just think that every scout should have as many oppertunities to look around and make their OWN decision. If they go to "THAT" troop anyways..then so be it. But the pack OWES it to them to let the Scouts and Perents to decide.

 

And like said before, the pack, leaders, and CO have no sayso whatsoever as to Cubs visiting other troops.

 

If the Pack leadership tries to act toughman about it, give your DE or SE a call. Tell them that alot of parents are seriously considering dropping from the pack and no longer supporting ( selling or buying) popcorn .

[Kamelian 10]

CO is a church... The pack doesn't attend meetings in the CO church building, doesn't attend CO church services, and doesn't involve themselves in the church or troop activities in anything else.

There have been problems in the past with getting the CO to put troop info in the church newsletters or on the Sunday bulletins - and pack info never appears anywhere. Information we've put on the church's bulletin boards in the past has disappeared.

 

The pack meets at a school across the street, allegedly because they have a larger gymnasium and closer proximity to the playground (50 yards from the church). The pack and troop (I'm told) have always chartered separately, and the pack leaders take care of their part without bothering to find out whether the troop is still active. When I first joined the troop around 1997 or 1998, I was unaware the CO maintained a charter for a pack until sometime after 2001. In the fall of 2002, we actually did get 1 or 2 boys to come visit us from the pack, but we never saw any of the cubs until then. Their parents told our leaders they had already decided which troop they were going to go to - they didn't want to alienate the pack leaders over it - and said they were only visiting our troop because we had something planned that looked a lot more interesting than the other troop.

 

The school seems to be contributing to part of the problem, too. Because of legal problems over various issues, the local school district began a policy - city wide, not just this one school - a few years back: They don't permit people to enter on their property unless they have prior approval from the school board. This includes efforts by the council and local troops, for troop or pack recruitment purposes, and for attending the meetings of any group already permitted to meet on school property if the visitor isn't an actual registered member of the group. So as registered members on the charter, the COR could attend, or the IH, but nobody in the troop is permitted.

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

WEll, this part is actually okay and correct. The two units are seperate units independant of each other and have very different programs. One does not need the other to charter, recharter or exist.

 

Matter of fact, you have to charter or recharter that way. You cannot have a joint recharter, The same person can deliver two different recharters to the scout office at the same time, but still two seperate sets of papers.

 

 

Yeah, they are being jerks about everything else, and it is a very nice gesture to give the in house troop a first chance veiwing, but that's about it.

 

After that, the pack and troop are two very independant and seperate entities.

[John-in-KC 311]

Kamelian,

 

May I ask your registered Scouting position in the Troop, please?

 

I would hope you are the CC or the SM.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

So a competing Scout Troop has spent 5-6 years or more contributing leadership to the Cub Pack and selling parents and leaders on the idea that they have a desireable program.

 

That's exactly what smart troops do.

 

Scouting always emphasizes planning in pretty much everything. Planning where you are going to get the boys you need for your program and taking the steps needed to insure they come are part of the Scouting game.

 

Yiour competition has been doing that. Your troop has not. Blaming the other troop for being smart while you guys neglected that and hoped boys from the pack would come to you because your had the same unit number apparently hasn't worked well as a strategy.

 

I think you are going to have to smarten up a lot to compete with that troop.

 

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

I get the whole free market theory behind troops recruiting from Cubs. If Scouts are voting with their feet and going to another troop, we need to re-examine our own program and ask why and what we can do to make our program more attractive. Cubs should be free to choose among troops to find one which suits them best. Just like in any other free market, competition makes all players better. I have no problem with that .... up to a point.

 

Actually that point is the second point -- A Scout is Loyal.

 

I think we have an obligation to work with, support and help the other units attached to our chartered organization. I know there is no technical connection between units, but I'll bet many if not most CO's see their "Scouting" program as one, not a collection of separate programs. No, there's nothing in any handbook or BSA policy which mandates it, or which even acknowledges the concept of "brother" units. But loyalty and common courtesy demand it.

 

All units connected to a CO has an obligation to support the CO, both jointly and singly. If nothing else, we need to play nice. CO's don't charter packs, troops and crews because they want to referee this sort of intermural crap. Packs need to have good programs, prepare their boys for the troop and work with the troop to ensure the boys are successful in Boy Scouts. Troops need to provide a good program for the incoming Cubs and do their part to help the pack with Den Chief and Webelos transitions. Both have an obligation to help each other deliver the best Scouting program possible for the Chartered Organization.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[RememberSchiff 3662]

A Scout is loyal to whichever patrol and troop he belongs. And from my experience, scouts migrate to be with their friends or get away from adults, the program content is usually an after thought.

 

I have always encouraged Webelos to visit other units in hopes of keeping more in Scouting. Their choice should be respected.

 

BTW, I have not been a member of any of the Charter Organizations that have sponsored my units.

 

My $0.02

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

You missed my point.

 

In the OP the pack is actively undermining the troop; denigrating the program; refusing to allow the troop to recruit within the pack; not only directing Webelos to another troop, but apparently harassing boys who indicate an interest in the CO's troop.

 

I have no problem whatsoever with an individual Scout choosing a different troop to be with his friends or because differences in program make one troop more suitable to him. But still, an individual Scout owes his brother troop a fair look. None of which is the situation in the original post. The pack leaders aren't encouraging Webelos to find a troop which best suits them and the certainly aren't respecting the boys' choices.

 

This is really an adult issue. Of course boys should do what is in their best interest. But the adults were selected by the CO to deliver a quality Scouting program top to bottom, regardless of the program in which we happen to be registered. If I believe our pack is delivering a sub-standard program, I have an obligation to the CO to try and help them improve. If our pack leaders see something in our troop program which is causing Scouts to quit or move on, they need to let us know and help us fix it.

 

At the core, this is another thread about a poor relationship between a unit and CO. How many threads -- how many current threads -- have we read where the CO doesn't support the unit or the unit doesn't support the CO?