how do we handle a problem with adults?

[John-in-KC 311]

Kamakamelian,

 

I have the funny feeling I know the Council you're in, based on the January recharter ;-)

 

You really have three choices at this point:

 

- Do nothing. You don't have to serve this Troop. Let someone else worry about the problem.

 

- Take the reins, but plan to close the shop in short order. Arrange for the remaining three to transfer to another good troop, put the fiscal house in order, and return property to the Chartered Partner for disposition.

 

- Take the reins and decide to rebuild. Put the two youth on charter, but let them know this is their last year unless they start doing the program. Get the adults out of the way. Get with the COR, and tell him that he (and the Partner) have to step up to the plate and do their part of leader selection and vetting. Recruit enough youth over the coming year that you have at least five after age-outs and drop-outs.

 

Contact your District Commish. Tell him you want the contact data for your ADC and UC. Even with your experience, you want idea bouncers and neutral parties to help. Contact your COR/IH. Again, tell them you want them on board and reachable to you as a matter of routine.

 

Option 3 is hard, but it has potential to be the most rewarding. Are you and the SM onboard with a common vision for the kids?

[Twocubdad 665]

It's possible to recharter provisionally with less than five Scouts with the permission of the Scout Executive. Let your DE know what's up. I guarantee the council will do whatever they can to keep the charter from lapsing. Don't let that preclude you from doing what you think is right.

[SSScout 1615]

John-in-KC has the short list of choices of action.

The SM should corral the Scouts and, if they LIKE Scouting, ask them to invite their friends to consider joining. If they DON'T like Scouting, even in theory, plan on choice#2, unfortunately.

 

I would not even recharter with the problem families. The dynamics are too challenging and it is obvious, even from the short story form of your situation, that the boys are the victims of their environment. Too bad. If the Troop could have stood up to the fathers in the first place, the boys might have benefited.

 

Godspeed and good luck.

YiS

[cjlaird 10]

Sorry guys & gals, I've been away a few days. To WAKWIB, hey... I love HOAC, took much of my commissioner training with your council's team... but no, I'm not a member there.

 

As to training, so far as I know there's not a scrap of YPT with the problem dads. What I do know is that these guys have chronically resisted any kind of training over the last 9 years and haven't even shown up for meetings the past 2+ years. I would be amazed if they had any kind of proof of current training with dates prior to 12/2010.

The crap of which you speak has cascaded since 2001 because these bad dads have resorted to intimidation and/or coercion to get the other leaders and committee members in the troop to agree to what the bad dads wanted for their kids, e.g., rank advancement & so forth without having to actually attend or participate or follow the rules according to BSA policy or troop bylaws. They systematically got rid of everyone who knew how the program should be run and tried to ruin and besmirch the reputation of a SM who was in the troop for some 15 years until the latter part of 2003. Consequently, we have a couple of namby-pamby types who made Eagle without having to attend summer camp and troop campouts, and although one of them can say he was SPL for 3 terms, he was so cowed and intimidated by his own dad's influence that he has absolutely no leadership skills whatsoever.

 

Hi Mike F - thanks for the input. I've been associated with this troop from 1998 until I was forced out by the idiot faction 2 or 3 years ago. The period between 2003 and 2007 was when the idiot faction was actively getting rid of everyone in the troop with even a shred of training or knowledge of how the scouting program should be run. Troop dynamics haven't changed all that much since the bad dads quit coming to meetings, but they have had such a stranglehold over the troop that they still exert control the way the troop leaders approach things. However, with the exception of maybe one or two of the newer youth members, I still know everybody in the troop. The DE has indicated to the SM and the present CC that he will work with us on retaining charter, regardless of low numbers. The present COR is not the same man who was working on the side of the idiots back in 2005 and 2006... the new COR has stated he is interested in doing what's in the best interests of the good of the troop.

 

Gary, I would love to retain one or both of these guys on the committee, simply for the numbers issue, but they have shown time and again that they are simply NOT interested in the good of the troop - they are only interested in themselves and in getting recognition for their lazy sons by ignoring the rules of the program. They want to be retained on the roster just so they can go around and boast that they are "still" members of BSA.

Of the two jerks, the lesser jerk simply doesn't attend anything. He's on the roster, but nobody has seen him in 5 or 6 years except when it's time to pay renewal membership fees, or to come make some excuse why his precious son (now 15) can't attend something. This is the dad who told the troop he'd signed his kid up for a space camp session during the same week the troop was set to go to Camp Hale in Okla, but when we got back we discovered the kid never went to space camp - he stayed home playing computer games.

The greater jerk is the one the entire troop wants to get rid of. He's the one who used to remove boys from meeting rooms to go have private discussions where nobody else could witness what was going on - and no amount of reprimands from the other leaders, or telling him it was inappropriate had any effect on him. He's the one who used to come to meetings and stand 10 feet away from his kid to make sure his kid said what he wanted his kid to say while he was SPL. He's the one who, along with his best bud (former COR), got rid of one of the best SMs I've ever seen and attempted to ruin the man's reputation within the council. At a recent camporee that was called off due to excessively bad weather, six kids were vying for a prize in some skill competition. When the word went out that the camporee organizers were calling it quits, the skill competition ended despite the fact that there was already a winner. The winner never got his prize - instead, it was given by the greater jerk (who was the competition supervisor) to his son (our SPL at the time) who didn't even compete in the skill.

 

Scoutnut - Committee meetings have been a problem because when these guys say they're going to be there, nobody else will attend - because of the intimidation and B.S. factors - and then when the guys turn out to be no-shows, as usual, all that's left is the SM, CC, and SPL. My son, a former troop member & an Eagle through this troop (in spite of the efforts of the bad dads to prevent his achievements), has indicated he may agree to come on as a committee member, as his work schedule allows, to help us stabilize things & turn the focus back where it needs to be: boy-run activities and adequate troop participation for honest advancement of skills and ranks.

 

Shortridge - we have a SM, 2 AS, an outgoing CC, 1 MC, and me... and some interested former youth members who are now adults but won't rejoin while the bad dads are on the roster. From what I gather, the new COR may be more of a figurehead than a participating member, as the SM says he is very hard to get hold of and it then takes 2 or 3 weeks to get him to meet with anybody. However, he does seem very interested in getting the troop back on track.

I agree with you about keeping the non-attending youth on the roster & deleting their dads - and we may do just that if the DE suggests it's the best way to go forward at this time - but if the DE can help us retain our charter without the boys who won't attend, and assist us in attracting new members, so much the better. Some of our former youth members have said they know boys who are interested in being scouts... but distance & transportation is a problem for them (they live 25 to 30 miles out).

 

Clemlaw - We have 2 boys on the roster who don't attend campouts & summer camps (or meetings) because their dads think they aren't "man enough" to weather the elements or keep up with the others, or they don't attend because their dads don't want to bother to go on the activity and don't want their kids to participate without them. The kid who was SPL for 3 terms in 2002-2003, was the son of the bigger of the 2 jerks in the troop. This kid refused to go to summer camp after 2003. In the 2003 s-camp, while he was SPL, he refused to get up early enough to do the morning flag ceremony, lead the boys down to the dining hall, and do his other duties - my son, as senior boy in the troop, quietly assumed those responsibilities. When the SPL was voted out of the position - and rightfully so - both of his parents threw a highly visible tantrum during the meeting & threatened everybody in the troop. They demanded a re-election, charging that the SM "hated" their son & "rigged" the vote, and the SM refused to cave in. The parents then polled each and every boy who voted to find out who he "really voted for" and every last one of the boys refused to talk to them, AND refused to cast another vote. The troop members had to deal with a major sour-grapes attitude from the dad over this issue for almost a year - this was in 2004 - over his kid being passed over on the SPL election, as if not being SPL was going to cause his kid to break out in ribbons & lace or something.

 

Must leave now, but I'll check back in later & respond to more when I get back.

[jr56 92]

If you have the backing of the COR and the other troop leaders, and the thick skin to withstand the backlash from these people, tell them that their services are no longer wanted, and goodbye. End of story. If the kids want to stay in the troop, they can. My guess is that the dads will pull them, so that won't be an issue. Good luck to you.

[Twocubdad 665]

And there you have it.

[cjlaird 10]

Thick skin - that's a good one... haha. I was booted out because I was so vocal about the way the troop was being sabotaged by Jerk-1 and Jerk-2, and because I had the training and experience in scouting to know how things were supposed to be... same reason the old SM was booted in 2003 - we both knew what the program was, how it was supposed to be run, and were trying to get the bad dads to follow the published rules.

 

Sadly, Option 2 may be the plan we will probably have to look at and consider if we can't salvage what's there in the next 6 to 12 months. However, I think Option 3, as proposed by John-in-KC, is the one we will work for in the foreseeable future. All the troop members, both boys and adults (including the COR), seem to be pretty highly motivated to keep the troop alive. I've thought for quite some while that if we get rid of the problem members - the guys who are members on paper only - that we stand a pretty good chance of getting new boys and improving the troop environment for everyone. SM mentioned that, at one of the recent meetings, she suggested including the two chronically absent boys in the planning for some activity, and none of the newer boys even knew who was being discussed. It's been over 15 months since either of them even dropped in to say hello, so it isn't as if they would be missed if they were all knocked off the charter.

 

We aren't looking to build a huge troop - but we'd sure be happy to have from 6 to 18 active scouts by the end of 2011. At the present time, our SM thinks we can get the old SM and his wife to come back in an advisory capacity to serve on the committee. If we're lucky enough to get them, I want to appoint one to oversee training the youth members & make sure they have the proper direction, and to act as a buffer between the boys and the parents so the troop can learn to be youth-led again, and appoint the other to oversee training for the adults on the roster and make sure it's current within guidelines.

 

In consideration of trying to attract new boys and cubs in transition to troop, I have ANOTHER question for y'all. Our CO has both this troop and a cub pack. What do we do about CM/WL/DL personnel in the brother pack of our CO who seem absolutely bent on routing ALL of the transitioning cubs from the pack to one particular troop where the leader/s went through their own scouting as youth? There's a guy I've heard about from several sources who seems to go out of his way to poison the well for all the troops in town by telling the parents of the cubs in that pack that no other troop is good enough for their little darlings. The troop in question is considered an 'Eagle factory' that hasn't always necessarily pushed the right leadership & scout skills, just mainly focuses on rank advancement to Eagle by age 14, with a reputation for booting out boys who fail to reach Eagle by 14, and it's full of kids whose parents are doctors & lawyers & such.

[ScoutNut 147]

With as crappy as you state your Troop has been/is, are you really surprised that the Webelos in your CO's Pack are going elsewhere?

 

Your Troop will have to prove to the Pack, and especially the Webelos dens, that things have improved, and will continue to improve, in the Troop. This might be an uphill battle.

 

You might ask your COR to speak with the CM and let the Pack know there has been a leadership change, and there will be some major house cleaning going on in the Troop. If you get your act together, your SM can personally invite the Webelos dens to a Troop activity to showcase the new Troop.

 

Although stranger things have happened, I would not expect to win over this years Webelos group. They can see that the Troop has one leg, and one arm, in the grave. They will also know that the problem families have still not been dealt with.

[Twocubdad 665]

I agree with Scoutnut, that given the history and relationships, you probably shouldn't count on many crossover from your brother pack. You've got a lot of work to do to get the troop's house in order then an equal amount of work to do rebuilding the relationship with the pack. It could take several years.

 

Once you get the issues with the problems individuals settled, recruitment needs to be your priority. Without re-reading everything, I don't recall what kind of CO you have. If it is a church, perhaps you can focus families in the pack who are also members of the church. Maybe their loyalty to the church will cause them to overlook the heard mentality of the pack and the leanings of the Cubmaster. You only need a couple boys a year to keep above water.

 

Here's an idea: with your DE's help try to come up with a list of boys who have dropped out of either the pack or the other troop over the past few years. A phone call or letter may turn up some boys who maybe thought Cub Scout wasn't challenging enough or didn't care for the other troop, bu may still have an interest in Scouting. Without any help from your pack, you're going to need to recruit creatively.

 

But unfortunately, you need to consider that the situation may be beyond repair. You have a lot working against you. You should think about planning for that contingency. Maybe an agreement with the COR to mothball the troop for a year or two until all the bad blood clears. By then, maybe with a new Cubmaster, some of the younger Cub parents will be interested in restarting a quality unit.

[Proud Eagle 13]

Don't do anything based on some numbers game. Just don't.

 

In the long term that is doing the wrong thing for a not very good reason. If you are worried about taking a hit on membership and looking bad, don't sweat it. Fix the glitch, take the hit in numbers, then work on making the unit and its program better, which will in turn put you in a better position for long-term recruiting and retention. Sometimes a little short-term pain makes for long-term gain. Plus, you have to pay the fees on these no-good-so-and-sos from now till doomsday if you get yourself stuck in one of those numbers games traps. Vote them off the island, say goodbye to the weakest link, cull the herd, do what must be done.

 

Otherwise good advice it sounds like.

I am glad I don't have your issues, though brother I do sypathize as I am a relatively new CC of a troop with some issues of its own.

Good luck.

[John-in-KC 311]

If your new COR is willing to be your heavy, and do his share of the lifting in leader selection and qualification, then you can ride this wave.

 

If he's not willing to do his share, then I can see you being right back in the bad place way too soon.

 

If there's one thing I've learned, the moving parts of the adult side of Scouting work pretty fair ... when everyone does their part...

[oldisnewagain1 42]

Kamakamelian: "As to training, so far as I know there's not a scrap of YPT with the problem dads."

 

I have to agree with WAKWIB, your problem might be solved simply by the fact they don't have a valid YPT you can't register them. The dession is out of yours and the council's hands. You can always check this ahead of time using the validation tool or with your council office before the deadline for re-registering. My guess is they won't do the training before your have to turn in your paperwork.

 

Now I am no expert in these kind of things, but I would think the Dads, not being re-registered, would have to reapply as new adult members. But before you could even accept their applications, they would need to take YPT and have proof of taking the course. (Once again I would check using the validation tool or with the council office.) Should they do this, I would also set some ground rules on paper and make them sign that they agree to follow the rules.