how do we handle a problem with adults?

[cjlaird 10]

Following a 3- or 4-year hiatus, I was recently asked to apply for re-admittance into the membership of my son's old troop as a committee person. The leaders gave me an application and asked me to turn it in a couple of weeks ago, so I applied to be brought on board as a MC. When I turned in the app. I was told it's been unanimously decided that I will be appointed as CC as soon as the dust from the re-entry paperwork has settled (before re-chartering ends next month).

The position title itself isn't a problem. I have adequate training - Doctorate of Commissioner Service, Woodbadge, 3 years of sessions at Philmont, 15+ years of other leader training, a degree in psychology, etc. - so the title doesn't bother me in the least. But I feel that a certain amount of very careful treading will be necessary. I'm not sure exactly how to proceed. Being nominated as CC in the atmosphere that presently exists in the troop is almost a scary prospect. There are a lot of issues needing attention, and some serious resolution is going to be necessary. Many of the problems have been long in the making, and attention to them has been avoided for an equally long time. Apparently I'll be the one everyone hopes will take charge of the situation and help the troop get back on track with the way things ought to be run.

 

Historically, over the past 9 years, the troop has had problems from the dads in three particular families. Out of the five total kids from these three families, two are well entrenched spoiled-rotten brats with exaggerated senses of entitlement, very low levels of self-start ability, no leadership skills, and they're totally lacking in common sense. They're a lot like turkeys - would probably drown if you didn't tell them not to look up while it rained.

All three of the dads in question have behaved like ignorant boobs for years, intimidating the daylights out of other leaders and committee members, frightening a goodly number of the youth members, and interfering with the troop's ability to teach the ineffective offspring anything useful. One of the dads even went so far as to actively and overtly sabotage the efforts of at least two of the troop's boys as they tried to finish merit badges and projects so they could make Eagle.

 

These dads and their spouses have also resisted taking any form of leader training (at any level), and the dads have shown themselves to be shamelessly irresponsible hypocrites, braggarts, liars, and cheats, who obviously favor and promote their own kids at the expense and detriment of other kids who are better qualified with better skills. Generally, they're the kind of adults who are so reprehensible, irresponsible, and self-absorbed that any sensible troop would want to avoid their ilk like the plague. They caused 7 kids (out of 16) to either transfer to other troops or quit scouting entirely over the space of 2 months after summer camp ended in 2002. Aside from that, I could list all the stunts and the nonsense they've pulled since 2001... but it's a veritable book at this point and life's too short to waste that kind of time.

 

I'm now told that a more recent problem that has arisen in the troop has to do with these same families - again. Two of the dads in question - aside from the other long-term problems they've caused - have now become financially indebted to the troop. Last December, when the troop was rechartering for the 2010 period, one or both of these dads wiped out all of the remaining funds in their respective sons' troop accounts to use the money toward the recharter fees for the boys and the dads. In and of itself, their decision to do this was ok, in that it wasn't against troop policy at the time to do this. That's not the issue. The issue is, these guys said 'oh, gee, we can't pay the difference of what we owe tonight' and then proceeded to borrow some $30 to $50 from the troop's funds because they claimed to be short of funds to pay the balance of their fees.

 

Here's the rub: As the SM and current CC recently outlined to me, despite the fact that both of these dads are gainfully employed, and both of them have wives who are also gainfully employed, the dads told the troop leadership that they didn't have any cash on them to pay the balance of the fees, and they'd left their checkbooks at home. There weren't enough funds left in the boys' collective troop accounts to pay the re-chartering fees for the boys and their fathers, and the money they borrowed from the troop to cover their shortfall has NOT been paid back. They conned the committee into OK-ing the payment of the remainder of their fees (somewhere between $30 and $50, as I understand it) with the agreement, and the understanding of the entire adult contingent in the troop, that it was to be a loan that would be paid back.

 

Well, as I suspected, the loan is still outstanding and the troop leadership and committee are not happy campers over the deal. The boys and their dads have attended only one or two gatherings of the troop over the past 18 months, and when they were present at the meetings, the boys behaved like the same inept over-indulged kids and the adults created their usual diversions to keep the other troop members distracted from their objectives of learning scout skills & completing merit badge requirements.

 

Rechartering begins anew for the 2011 season very soon. We would like to keep the kids on the roster for our rechartering numbers (and there's no point in penalizing them for their dads' actions), but nobody in the troop - kids or adults - wants the dads of these two families to remain on the troop roster.

 

What are the options here? What advice can be offered for a troop policy for handling the outstanding loan problem, the decision of how to handle a reduction of troop numbers by crossing out the names of the problem adults so as to make it clear that they already rendered themselves as "probationary" members when they failed to pay their own dues last year and/or failed to repay their debt to the troop. What we might expect in terms of possible repercussions or whatever else might come up in relation to this mess?

 

[Twocubdad 665]

Forget the money, it's the least of your problems. If the price of solving all the other problems is $100, I'd pay it myself.

 

As to the rest, what is your direction from your COR? Are you being hired to clean up the mess or just put up with it? I wouldn't take the job with out a clear direction -- I'd even commit it to writing -- from the COR, the SM and remaining committee members.

 

Forget the probation nonsense. The CO can decline to recharter anyone for good cause, bad cause or no cause.

 

And you can expect them to raise holy hell, pull their boys from the troop, bad-mouth you all over the council, etc., etc.

 

But here's the deal: you know this going in. Don't take the job if you're not ready for a fire fight.

[cjlaird 10]

I've been associated with this troop since 1998 in one form or another. And, I've been putting up with "holy hell" from the Neanderthals since 2001. They're responsible for the fact that I left the troop after 2006, once they wore me down to the point where I decided it wasn't worth the battle any longer.

 

The old COR is now out - he was one of the problems between 2001 and 2007 - and the new COR wants what's best for the good of the troop. One of the two adults who has been the biggest jerks in the troop has been on the committee for what seems like eons. He has kept the committee from holding regular meetings for quite some time because either nobody will vote the way he wants them to or he doesn't show up. There are few active adults left in the troop - SM, 2 or 3 AS, CC & 1 or 2 MC - and they have all said they want the change to occur.

[Lisabob 13]

It seems clear to me. The COR should invite these two dads in for a talk. Lay out the "rules of the road" in terms of expected behavior. If adults can't handle it, then those adults are no longer acceptable as leaders in the COR's eyes. My guess is that the dads will opt out, but if not, the COR can explain to them that they are no longer members. Then the COR notifies Council of that decision and everything is finished.

 

If the CO chooses, they can go after the dads for the cash in small claims court. However, it probably is not worth it.

 

As for the boys - well unfortunately, they have goofy parents. Not much you can do about that. If you are going to take on the CC role and you have the backing of all of the other adults including the COR, then this will be a momentary unpleasantness. After the dust settles, the rest of you can get back to the business at hand, which is running a troop.

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

Did the boys in question do any fundraising this year? Are there currently any funds in their Scout Accounts? After first approaching these families to ask that the loans be repaid, the Scout Accounts would be the next place I would go to pay back the loans. Unfortunately, it does not sound like your Troop has any clear idea of who borrowed the money ("one or both of these dads"), or how much was borrowed ("somewhere between $30 and $50"). That being the case, I would recommend the Troop simply writes it off.

 

As for the rest of it, your Chartering Organization, in the person of your COR, can at any time, for any reason, decide to remove any adult, or youth, from membership in the unit.

 

It sounds to me like your Troop is more concerned with not showing a reduction in numbers, of either youth or adults, then they are in actually facing this problem.

 

The COR should tell the adults their services will no longer be needed by the Troop. The COR, and you, if you accept the position of CC, should then register some new Committee members who are willing to get fully trained, and have the best interests of all of the boys at heart.

 

I would bet that these families will then pull their boys from the Troop. However, from the way you talk about the boys this will hardly be a problem for you.

 

[cjlaird 10]

SM & current CC both know exactly who borrowed the funds, and how much it was. It's me who is a little unclear in the details at the moment. As I understand it, the boys' troop accounts were all completely zeroed out. If there were still funds, I'm sure the Committee would have siezed what was needed to restore the troop's loss, with the full support of the COR.

 

I'm still waiting for the paperwork to go through on my troop member application before I obtain more clearly defined information and prepare to step into the latrine pit. SM says it may take a few days (up to 2 or 3 weeks) to get all the signatures because the COR is notoriously hard to reach. In the meantime, the troop leadership is going to get me a copy of the present troop by-laws so that I can see what the stated rules are and what ought to be adjusted a tad.

 

Ultimate irony is, the guys whom the troop wants to boot out of there now are the same guys who got told me my dues were being refused at the end of 2006 (over the strenuous objections of everyone else in the troop), and now I get the opportunity to return the favor. In retrospect, if I'd had my wits about me in 2007, nad had not been so thoroughly burned out by these guys' nonsense, I could have paid dues to the council and maintained an at-large commissioner membership. But hindsight is clearer, and I was in the aftermath of a major move from one home to another at the time.

 

The odd thing is, I don't really have any hard feelings over the whole thing - it was just politics. I guess they believed I had to go so they could wrest more control and deal with less criticism from an educated well-trained person - and they didn't count on running into opposition from everyone else after I left. As for me, I just don't believe they have any business being part of a troop they and their kids don't attend more than once a year, and to which they owe a monetary debt.

 

Reduction in youth population numbers wouldn't be an issue this year, except for the fact that we have to maintain a certain number of kids on the charter in order to renew. If we knock off two (possibly three) kids from the charter at the same time we knock out the bad dads, the troop would have to recruit at least 2 new boys to replace them over the next 2 to 3 weeks - which sometimes tends to be kind of a trick during the Thanksgiving through Christmas period, unless we are able to get a dispensation from Council to allow a re-up with a temporary numbers reduction due to extenuating circumstances. Although... if word gets out that the bad dads are gone, it might not be so much of a problem.

 

To ScoutNut - NO. The boys in question have done NO fundraising activity for the last 3 to 5 years, have NOT attended summer camp since about 2004 or 2005, have come to only one (1) troop meeting in the last 12 months, have a reputation for attending only about 10% of the time between 2004 and 2010, and have attended NO weekend campouts since 2004. Losing them would only be a hardship in terms of maybe not having enough names on the charter to re-up.

 

To Lisabob - I doubt very seriously these bad dads will simply "opt out" of the troop when faced with the facts, whether the COR steps in and has a talk with them or not. They are so entrenched and so opinionated they think they own the troop and can do no wrong. Best route, based on everything I know about the bad dads, is to get a broad agreement from the rest of the adults and the COR to just cross their names off the roster and say as little about it as possible. If they appear with money in hand to pay dues we'll give them the option of applying it to last year's dues debt or finding another troop.

 

Meantime, SM and CC and the others are so excited about getting me to come back they're practically dancing. SM says "AT LAST!!! We can finally have a committee meeting again."

[WAKWIB 107]

You mentioned that these adults have refused training. Do they even have current Youth Protection Training from within the last two years? If not, they cannot be on your charter roster or anyone else's. That's the law from National. Ask them to present their YP certificate the next time you see them. If they don't have it,or if it is over 2 yrs old show them the door (so to speak).

And coming soon to a council near you, they will have to have position specific training to be on the roster as well. You show a location of Kansas. If you are in the Heart of America Council, that time is now. We are one of the beta sites for all the new training mandates. The YP certification is universal for all volunteers regardless of position in the organization everywhere.

I do wonder a bit about all the fuss they cause, both the adults and their sons, when their attendance appears to be slim-to-none. But according to your description it appears to be enough of one to cause a cascading wave of crap among the other adults.

As noted by TwoCub, your COR is your decision maker in this. Make him aware of the training deficit these adults might have.

 

[Mike F 10]

Kamakamelian,

 

Welcome back to the campfire!

 

As I once heard Gen Norman Schwarzkopf say, "When put in charge, take charge!"

You're doing that.

 

Your troop has a mess on its hands and you're the perfect guy to help untangle the ropes.

 

I would have a chat with friendly Unit Commissioner so you can let them know you are working this challenge. You might have the UC be there for your first Troop Committee meeting. The UCs and District Staff don't want units to fail. They will help you.

 

I would also begin immediately to sign up any other possible members for your committee. Perhaps a few of the folks who served with you in the past. With kids off to college, maybe they have time again. Let them know it is a short term commitment - maybe just a year. You need some level heads in there to help balance the bluster.

 

Consider not starting with a Committee meeting. Perhaps immediately start attending - or at least day-visiting - a few campouts so you can get a good feel for the status of troop program and health. This also allows you to better bond with the other adults who are in this with you.

 

Perhaps a social gathering of like-minded people to talk over current affairs and options for moving forward. I would do this in a place with no youth so the discussion can be frank.

 

Rather than saying the troop's top priority is dealing with these adults, consider naming recruiting as top priority. In truth, they go together, because getting this toxic problem resolved is key to creating the positive, dynamic program which attracts new members.

 

Since you're sitting at such low numbers, you may very well be in danger of losing your charter if don't have enough at the time of recharter. If some drop after you complete recharter (which seems likely), you have a year to get your numbers up. Since your recharter is due in a few weeks, I think I would just recharter the whole family (assuming dads meet training requirements). If dads don't meet requirement, it's not your fault and you don't have the option, but it doesn't have to be adversarial. You can politely say it's out of your hands until they complete the training. In the meantime, you'll be working with your group of like-minded folks to see the importance of controlling toxic attitudes in the troop.

 

Good luck. The trail ahead is rocky, but the mountain tops are calling!

[Gary_Miller 10]

Kamakamelian, "- and the new COR wants what's best for the good of the troop."

 

Whats best for the troop is to ensure the program is focused on being boy lead/run. As the new CC you should ensure that all leaders understand that your primary concern is the boys and non-other. Make sure that your committee focus is on helping the SM deliver the program to the boys, by supporting him and providing him the tools and material to accomplish the mission.

 

Kamakamelian, "One of the two adults who has been the biggest jerks in the troop has been on the committee for what seems like eons."

 

As the new CC I would approach this individual privately. Let him know that you value him as a member of the committee. Then I would let him know that your focus is on the Boys and their program. Share with him your vision on how to get the committee focused on the mission of the program and the goals of the CO. Then ask him if he can support you as the CC to accomplish the mission. If he says no then ask him to step down from the committee, or have him removed by the COR.

 

Kamakamelian, "He has kept the committee from holding regular meetings for quite some time because either nobody will vote the way he wants them to or he doesn't show up. There are few active adults left in the troop - SM, 2 or 3 AS, CC & 1 or 2 MC - and they have all said they want the change to occur."

 

Establish a time and place for committee meetings. Make sure its held at the same time each month. Stay away from the same day the troop meets, so the SM and ASM can attend.

 

Make sure everyone understands that buisness will be conducted on everyone having a chance to have their say in the discussion after which there will be a vote if need be and the outcome will be based on the majority vote.

 

Make sure everyone understands that there will be a meeting held and buisness will be conducted no matter how many people are there. If you want say then you better be to the meeting.

[Stosh 3452]

When I took over my present position as SM, I had a "deal" with the former SM. It was expected between the two of us that he would take on CC for a couple of years while the troop transitioned. He is fully trained WB and can handle the CC just as well as SM. Knowing what I was facing. We were taking the troop from adult led to boy led. He had basically burned out trying to do adult led and it wasn't working, thus my entrance.

 

Our "deal" was I would focus 100% of my time with the boys and he would focus 100% of his time with the adults. A divide and conquer type of approach. If an adult got in the way, they were directed to the committee and this allowed the SM to work with the boys and not worry about the parents.

 

For us this has worked out great. Parent issues just don't interfere with the boys at any level. If some parent is concerned that their boy isn't progressing quick enough, it goes to the committee, not the SM. If the committee feels the beef has validity, the CC contacts the SM and we work it out. There is no issue that comes from the parents that isn't first filtered out by the committee. The SM is thus free to run the program with the boys without interference.

 

When I needed new ASM's I talk to the CC. It's his job to provide them, train them, and get them up to speed with the troop. Thus far they have done an excellent job providing adult talent that fits nicely with the boy led program.

 

As SM, my #1 supporter in running the troop is my CC and his, now her, committee. When it came time to change CC's, the CC and committee vetted a number of individuals before asking the current CC who has come on board, with very little disruption, and the transition was virtually unnoticeable. My new CC is great and her committee has always been there to make sure the troop is running smoothly.

 

Unless they are chaperoning an activity or driving the boys somewhere, the committee has made sure the hands-on leadership of the boys has been fully trained and expectations laid out clearly. Even the chaperoning drivers have had YPT and or signed up as MB counselors that have been vetted and trained.

 

To date, there has been no political hassles in the troop and if they do arise, the committee is fully trained and focused to deal with it.

 

Just some things to think about as you take on the challenges of the CC position. Remember, it's ALL for the boys!

 

Stosh

[ScoutNut 147]

>>"SM says "AT LAST!!! We can finally have a committee meeting again.""

[shortridge 184]

You have a bigger problem than two obnoxious, lying dads. If losing two Scouts will cause you to drop below the minimum five Scouts needed for recharter, you're a troop on the verge of dying. So bite the bullet, someone write a check to keep the kids on the charter, drop the adults, send the kids a pro-forma letter reminding them of troop activities and events, and then start a recruiting effort so you're not dependent on the bullies.

 

He has kept the committee from holding regular meetings for quite some time because either nobody will vote the way he wants them to or he doesn't show up.

 

If he doesn't show up, drop him from the committee. One person's instransigence can't block a committee from meeting. You need a minimum of four adults to run a troop - a unit leader (SM) and three committee members (one of whom must be CC; the COR can double as the CC or an MC). Anything else is icing on the cake. You already have two of those three required commitee members - yourself and the COR. If dropping the dads will put you below that three-MC mark, move some of your ASMs into those slots for purposes of rechartering.

 

With such a small troop, you and the SM need to worry a lot less about policies and bylaws and committee meetings, and a heck of a lot more about recruiting and energizing a fun, active outdoor program. Policies and bylaws are good for the grownups, but the kids don't give a crap. Cut out all the administratibabble and focus on program.

[clemlaw 55]

Now, take my advice for what it's worth. I've been away from Scouting for about 30 years, and my current involvement is as Tiger Cub Den Leader. That means either that I'm out of touch, or else it means that I'm looking at this as an impartial outsider. You have to decide which it is.

 

But my first question is whether this troop is worth saving. I don't know what the minimum number of youth required for rechartering is, but I suspect that it's a pretty small number.

 

And even though you're still above that number on paper, you're already below that number in reality. Back when I was in Scouts, if a Scout hadn't shown up to any activity for almost a year, we would have said that he had "dropped out". If he showed up again in the same re-charter year, he would have seemlessly remained a member. And if he had showed up the next year, he would have been welcomed back. But in general, everyone came to everything, and if someone stopped showing up, the reason was that he had dropped out of the troop. Certainly people were absent sometimes, and there were a few activities that weren't intended for the whole troop. But we didn't have the "cafeteria" method that seems to take place in a lot of troops these days. Again, maybe I'm out of touch, and that's the norm these days. But IMHO, I would say that these kids dropped out of Scouts.

 

So without those two, you have a number of Scouts that the BSA doesn't recognize as being enough to form a troop. It's nice to have a vision for the future, and to believe that this will someday be a viable troop.

 

But if there are so few Scouts that the unit is unable to recharter, the the question I would ask is what value can this Troop deliver to its other members, right now?

 

Are there enough Scouts, right now or in the forseeable future, who are active enough to form one patrol? It seems to me that if there aren't at least about six Scouts who attend most meetings and events, then this group has already ceased to be a Boy Scout Troop, and the remaining members would be better served by finding them a viable troop somewhere else.

 

Again, maybe I'm out of touch, so take my advice for what it's worth. But it seems to me that you're about to embark on a thankless job that is perhaps best left undone, if things are truly as bad as you make it sound.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Kamakamelian, welcome back to da forums and to scouting.

 

I think yeh have to consider whether things are worth saving at this point.

 

If they are, then I wouldn't think twice about dropping da problem adults from the roster. They didn't pay for their registration, so why register them? They're not active, so why register them? It's really a no-brainer.

 

If they want to participate again, they can submit new applications. Then yeh can review the applications and decide whether yeh want them.

 

Honestly, I would do the same with the kids. Less than 10% participation rate? They're really not scouts. They're a family who occasionally uses a scout event as a low-cost vacation and babysitting service. Don't see why any volunteer's time should be spent on that sort of thing. There are commercial camps and child care services to cater to that need. That's not what Scouting is for or about.

 

Troops often grow and thrive for a bit after someone takes care of "the bad egg" that is disrupting things. Pull the trigger and move on to doin' the more fun work of building your program.

 

Beavah

 

[Mike F 10]

I strongly agree with Shortridge on this one.

 

Under the assumption you want to save the troop, first priority is recharter. If you need the scouts from the problem families, so be it. Recharter and you have a year to work it. Don't take any other strong actions until this is complete.

 

Next, take charge of the committee and provide top cover for the SM.

If some don't like it, hear them out and decide if their services are still required on the committee.

"Thanks. I hear you, but I'm the CC and this is the way we're going to do it. By the way, this is the way it's spelled out in the TC handbook/training materials. Are you in or not?"

 

Finally, Beavah's point was one a few have made in different ways. Some individuals are toxic to a group - creating a tension which drives people away. Cure the cancer and you have a chance of saving the unit. You don't have to conduct surgery (removal), but sometimes that's the only option if other treatments don't work.