Will Girl Scouting Do a Better Job Developing Future Leaders Than Boy Scouting?

[qwazse 4342]

I know nothing of the GS program except what my co-advisor tells me (she's a gs mom). My daughter was bored by it. (Her leader would have nothing to do with camping.) So we missed out. However, the girls coming into venturing from GS do have impressive organizational skills. When they organize an event for a crew it gets done. Not so for the boys at the same age.

 

Why? Because at 14 or 15 most BS have been PL, maybe one is currently SPL. Mobilizing a patrol of 8 or even a troop of 3 patrols is not the same thing as mobilizing a crew of 24!

 

Oh, and why the outdoor program? Probably the most significant descisions voters in the USA will have to make in the next decade will have to do with land use and fishing rights. I would rather my youth have walked those lands and swum those reefs before they run my country.

[Eagledad 2777]

>>Boy Scout troops are also (theoretically) boy led. If practice makes perfect, then the Boy Scouts should be getting a whole lot more practice leading and planning than the Girl Scouts do.

[Kudu 186]

Yeah, that's just what we need: To make Boy Scouts even more like Girl Scouts.

 

Ask any group of Scout-aged boys to describe "Boy Scouts" in one word. That word will be "Gay."

 

The reason? We took Patrol-based Scoutcraft "Adventure" out of Scouting and replaced it with fake leadership.

 

I was not aware that these CEO-worshiping "leadership" skills had done even more damage to the Girl Scouts until I read Richard Louv's Last Child in the Woods: Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder. In his chapter about Scouting he writes:

 

"But the overwhelming majority of Girl Scout programs are unconcerned with nature. Included (along with selling cookies) are such offerings as Teaching Tolerance, Tobacco Prevention, Golf Clinic, Self-Improvement, Science Festival, EZ Defense, and Financial Literacy. Soon, Camp CEO will bring businesswomen to a natural setting to mentor girls in job interviewing, product development, and marketing" (page 152).

 

Cubby's Cubmaster writes:

 

I realize that scout skills is a tool to get to an end--and we all agree that one of those ends is LEADERSHIP.

 

No, "we all" do not agree.

 

Teaching "Leadership" is a cancer upon Scouting. Note the use of "Character and Leadership" as the fake "ends" of Scouting in our Chief Scout Executive's current war on camping:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/leadership/sitting_side_by_side_with_adults.htm

 

Cubby's Cubmaster writes:

 

However, how useful really is it to know 10 knots or so, 5 lashings and to be camping in a tent as frequently...to name a few? ... I ask myself, HOW OFTEN do I use scout skills at work and home? Rarely is my answer. Outside of scouting, when was the last time I tied a knot (4 times in last month--same one didn't need to know a taunt-line hitch), a lashing (never), needed to live in a tent (never--and hopefully never!).

 

We already have a "21st century program" that prepares "future leaders" with the "view that some of the scout skills and methods we use are a bit outdated and not overly useful in the 21st century."

 

Its called "Wood Badge for the 21st Century."

 

It used the needs of Den Leaders as an excuse to achieve the goal of Leadership Development since William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's retirement in 1965: To kick Baden-Powell's Scoutcraft out of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge and replace it with "Leadership Development." See "1965" at:

 

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

 

Contrary to the insistence of leadership enthusiasts, Scouting was never about teaching modern skills. In fact the Act of Congress that grants our corporation an absolute monopoly on Scouting very specifically requires that we use the Scoutcraft "methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." There is no mention of "leadership" as either an aim or method of our corporation.

 

My question to leadership enthusiasts is always: "Why not Little League?"

 

Why not replace all those "outdated" baseball skills that Den Leaders find not useful "at work and home," and turn Little League into something that most boys will hate as much as modern Scouting?

 

After all, the ability to swing a wooden club "at work and home" became obsolete with the dawn of the Bronze Age.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

[gcnphkr 11]

"I'd suggest JROTC or something of that nature"

 

Funny, my son was on NJROTC while he was working on his Eagle. After going to NAYLE and staffing NYLT he decided he did not want to be in NJROTC anymore. He said, "It just teaches people how to boss not to lead".

[acco40 95]

When Baden-Powell "invented" the Boy Scout program, it was to help foster "Boy Scout" skills. This was needed because it was the time that modern countries wre gravitating toward an agrarian, rural majority to a city, urban majority. The British army needed the youth to have tracking skills, ability to "live off the land," and other skills that were of interest to the military. Also, folks of that time (as always?) thought the upcoming younger generation was a bunch of juvenile deliquents and that a program that tought "character" was necessary.

 

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

Now, how can someone define what "Scouting" is by telling them one of the purposes is to train them in "scoutcraft?" By definition, isn't any "craft" the BSA trains the boys in (automechanics for example) by definition "scoutcraft?"

 

Methods in common use on June 15, 1916 - It tends to conserve the moral, intellectual, and physical life of the coming generation, and in its immediate results does much to reduce the problem of juvenile delinquency in the cities...The importance and magnitude of its work is such as to entitle it to recognition and its work and insignia to protection by Federal incorporation. The Scout scheme is based upon the methods involved in educating the boy. It is a scheme of placing the boy on honor. In addition to requiring him to live up to a standard or code of laws which insure development of character along proper lines, it requires him to study in order to pass certain tests of qualification. The passing of these various tests ~ is recognized by the award of appropriate badges or medals and insignia. - US Congress.

 

So, no, I don't interpret "methods" as lashings, knots, camping skills, etc. I think we, as Scouters, need to employ those tools (the Outdoors) to keep the interest of the boys, give them a sense of adventure, etc. but hey, whatever works.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[JMHawkins 15]

Teaching "Leadership" is a cancer upon Scouting

I think "Citizenship" is far more important than "Leadership." For one thing, citizenship includes providing leadership - if that's what your society needs and you have the ability to offer it. It also includes, er, "Followership" for lack of a better work, which for me defines not just how to take orders (aka do your part), but how to recognize competent, wothy leaders in the first place, and how to replace bad leaders if you end up with one. Patrol elections are important not just so the PL learns how to lead, but so that the rest of the Patrol learns the consequences of casting poorly thought out votes, and of failing to support a competent leader when you have one. You can vote for your friend as PL, but if he's a screw-up, your Patrol will suffer. If your friend loses and you undermine the guy who won, your Patrol will suffer.

 

And like Adam S said, the world isn't made up of just leaders. Gotta be some followers too, and it's a cancer on our entire society that "follower" is probably considered such an insult these days. There's no shame in being a good follower of a worthy leader. Where there is, or at least ought to be, shame is in being a blind follower of whatever snake-oil salesman comes along. For my part, I think we're more in need of teaching Followership than Leadership. Ultimately it's the Followers who decide who the Leaders will be anyway, so we're better off with a society that's good at picking leaders.

 

And that's "Citizenship" really.

 

 

 

[acco40 95]

Let me rephrase it another way. Let's say Congress charters a new organization tomorrow - the Acco40 Folks of America. The purpose of the "corporation" is to reduce obesity in our youth. The "method" that this corporation uses is to employ exercise (to burn calories and increase muscle mass) and provide dietary education (portion control, habits, etc.). Now, to exercise we would use treadmills, free weights, Universal machines, etc. Fast forward 100 years and the methods have not really changed - exercise and diet, but technology has now made treadmills, free weights and Universal machines antiquated and rare. Those were not the real methods, just tools. No violation of the Acco40 Folks of Americal (AFA) charter in my eyes.

[JMHawkins 15]

Let me rephrase it another way. Let's say Congress charters a new organization tomorrow - the Acco40 Folks of America. The purpose of the "corporation" is to reduce obesity in our youth. The "method" that this corporation uses is to employ exercise (to burn calories and increase muscle mass) and provide dietary education (portion control, habits, etc.). Now, to exercise we would use treadmills, free weights, Universal machines, etc. Fast forward 100 years and the methods have not really changed - exercise and diet, but technology has now made treadmills, free weights and Universal machines antiquated and rare. Those were not the real methods, just tools. No violation of the Acco40 Folks of Americal (AFA) charter in my eyes.

And if 100 years from now the AFA program consisted of writing up exercise programs and meal plans, but not actually doing any of them (er, like say, build a fire, but the scout is not required to light it)? Or if the AFAScout was required to show he could take 20 steps on a treadmill, identify a barbell and a dumbbell and explain when you would use one over the other, but not, you know, actually lift one...

 

Really, there are lots of ways to teach things to kids. The genius of outdoor scouting is it makes use of some powerful natural inclinations among scout-age boys, specifically a sense of adventure and a desire to belong to a small peer group, and it does it in an environment that highlights responsibility in a way you just can't do with the vast resources of an advanced civilization at your beck and call.

[Kudu 186]

acco40 writes:

 

When Baden-Powell "invented" the Boy Scout program, it was to help foster "Boy Scout" skills. This was needed because it was the time that modern countries were gravitating toward an agrarian, rural majority to a city, urban majority.

 

Yes.

 

In practical terms, the Boer War taught Baden-Powell that the pasty white indoor English youth were no match for the rugged outdoor South African farm boys whose skin was "tanned to a chestnut hue" (Boer is the Dutch word for "farmer').

 

The purpose of Scouting was to get English boys out of their mothers' parlours.

 

"Leadership" enthusiasts have always characterized outdoor skills as "old-fashioned," because the purpose of Leadership skills is to give meaning to the desperate lives of adults who sit in indoor cubicles for 30 years, imagining themselves to be "leaders."

 

acco40 writes:

 

Now, how can someone define what "Scouting" is by telling them one of the purposes is to train them in "scoutcraft?" By definition, isn't any "craft" the BSA trains the boys in (automechanics for example) by definition "scoutcraft?"

 

Does CEO-worship use "outside the box" thinking to bundle toxic assets much?

 

In 1916 Scoutcraft meant the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements which included "instruction in First Aid, Life Saving, Tracking, Signaling, Cycling, Nature Study, Seamanship, Campcraft, Woodcraft, Chivalry, Patriotism, and other subjects" Handbook for Boys, page 3.

 

The drive to bundle "Scoutcraft" as anything the BSA decides to promote is an example of CEOs replacing something real and measurable (Scoutcraft) with alchemy formulas. This EDGE method is now bundled into the new Boy Scout Handbook's "Scoutcraft" section! The Patrol Method presentation of SM-Specific training takes this toxic bundling a step further and completely replaces the Patrol and Patrol Leader with EDGE!

 

acco40 writes:

 

So, no, I don't interpret "methods" as lashings, knots, camping skills, etc.

 

Me neither. Scoutcraft is not a mere "method." An Act of Congress defines it as one of the three "Purposes" of Scouting.

 

acco40 writes:

 

Let me rephrase it another way. Let's say Congress charters a new organization tomorrow - the Acco40 Folks of America. The purpose of the "corporation" is to reduce obesity in our youth...Those were not the real methods, just tools. No violation of the Acco40 Folks of Americal (AFA) charter in my eyes.

 

The correct analogy would be Congress granting you a MONOPOLY on all "words or phrases the corporation adopts," such as obesity, diet, exercise, etc. Fast forward 100 years and your corporation's professional millionaires define "reducing obesity" to mean "teaching Leadership Skills," and "exercise" to mean memorizing the EDGE method.

 

That is why the BSA's Charter specifies "using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

Again: Why not Little League?

 

"Through proper guidance and exemplary leadership, the Little League program assists youth in developing the qualities of citizenship, discipline, teamwork and physical well-being. By espousing the virtues of character, courage and loyalty, the Little League Baseball program is designed to develop superior citizens rather than superior athletes."

 

Doesn't say anything about hitting, running, or pitching. Certainly we could teach boys "citizenship" by getting them indoors to study the three branches of government, as the BSA does with our monopoly on Scouting.

 

And "Teamwork"? That's a no-brainer! It has indoor corporate "team-building" exercises written all over it.

 

The reason that Little League can not turn baseball into Girl Scout "Leadership" is that they do not have a monopoly on "baseball" that they can use to bundle into sports the stuff that boys hate, have always hated, and will hate until the end of time.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

[83Eagle 11]

My question to leadership enthusiasts is always: "Why not Little League?"

 

Why not replace all those "outdated" baseball skills that Den Leaders find not useful "at work and home," and turn Little League into something that most boys will hate as much as modern Scouting?

 

After all, the ability to swing a wooden club "at work and home" became obsolete with the dawn of the Bronze Age.

 

With respect, I don't see how this analogy supports the point you are trying to make.

 

Little league and the game of baseball itself has changed over the past 100 years. So have other sports. Although the philosophy of the game is the same, if you tried to have a team play the same way the game was played back then, using the same strategies, techniques, and equipment, it would be laughable. "Nah, Johnny, you don't need that mouthguard and fancy helmet to play quarterback, just wear this leather cap and you'll be fine. And what are you doing throwing the ball? This game is about running!" Likewise, coaching of youth sports has changed as well.

 

As far as I can see, Scouting is still fundamentally Scouting. Boys are still outside, camping and doing adventurous activities, and working in the patrol method. And our troop today does much more when it comes to boy-led, adventure-filled programming than I ever did as a Boy Scout in a top-down troop 20+ years ago.

 

Of course, the program has evolved. But the argument seems to be about emphasis in the delivery of the program, and whether or not certain skills are arcane or still germane to 21st century youth.

 

And as far as Scouting being "gay?" Well, let's be honest with ourselves: the perception that scouting isn't cool been around long after "square" was dropped from the CS promise. It's just something we have to deal with and help the boys prove otherwise (or not worry about).

 

[Basementdweller 608]

Daughter hates girls scouts, all they do is sell cookies and make a craft every meeting. Not very meaning full.

 

She simply cannot wait to be of age to enter Venturing.

 

So how can GS do a better job when the girls are itching to join venturing.

[shortridge 184]

The genius of outdoor scouting...

 

That phrase is redundant.

 

There is no such thing as scouting without the outdoors.

[shortridge 184]

Leadership IS the main reason I have my son in boy scouts and why I encourage him to be in it.

 

But is that the main reason your son is in Boy Scouts?

[83Eagle 11]

Daughter hates girls scouts, all they do is sell cookies and make a craft every meeting. Not very meaning full.

 

She simply cannot wait to be of age to enter Venturing.

 

So how can GS do a better job when the girls are itching to join venturing.

 

Depends on the troop. My daughter is a Cadet and goes camping with the troop several times a year, every season, and has been camping with her troop since first grade, maybe even kindergarten, can't recall. Plus summer district camps and a smattering of other outdoor activities. The only crafts she does is when she is leading a meeting of Daisies or Brownies, which her troop takes turns doing.

 

When she's not outdoors, much of her other time in Scouting is spent in service projects...working with the humane society to walk the dogs...working with our village to refurbish the parks equipment...organizing food drives when the pantry runs low.

 

And then there are the usual outings. Over the next few months they have a hockey/ice skating lesson/demo with the local triple-A team (or whatever they are) lined up...reserved the whole movie theatre for the service unit to take in a show...plus some "girly" stuff like a Mom & Me tea and, yes, even a trip planned to the Mall of America. Not something I'd enjoy, but she can't wait.

 

So, the opportunity and the structure is there. It's all a matter of how the program is run, and by whom.

 

Though I will readily admit, she probably cannot tie a single lashing, blow a bugle, or transmit a message in semaphore code.

[Basementdweller 608]

Quality of the leadership is an issue in Girls Scouts as well.

 

But our venture crew is full of young ladies who brothers are scouters and want some boy scouting for themselves.