Need References

[UCEagle72 10]

Momof7 --

 

I think what many of the folks here are trying to say, can be summed up by what was written by Bill Hillcourt in the 3rd Edition of the "Handbook for Scoutmasters" --

 

"The badges which accompany his advancement and which the Scout wears on his Uniform are not to show that he has passed certain tests. There should be no past tense implied! On the contrary, each badge cries out I can, right now and here!

 

The badge of rank worn by a Scout is like the M.D. sign on a doctors door. It advertises to the world that Here lives a man who is prepared to help sick people. So must the First Class Badge advertise to the world that here is a boy who is qualified to help others as well as take care of himself. It is not to be considered a decoration, but rather a symbol of knowledge and ability.

 

Games and other activities that review the various Scout Requirements should be worked into the Troops program continuously so that the Scouts will not grow rusty for lack of an opportunity to use and practice their knowledge and ability.

 

-- that is what is important!

 

[momof7scouts 10]

I can imagine a few 14 and 15 year old mad as hell that that young kid got two BORs in one night when I was told I couldnt.

 

You are right and in many ways the parents are not doing their sons any favorites. The "special" boys are resented by the other boys who have been working on their own, approaching leaders on their own, and following the rules. Especially the ones who spent 18 months working their butts off to get to the rank these boys got in six or seven, after a single camp out. This is even more true for those going to Star, Life and getting Eagle Palms because they have been denied, over and over, having both an SM conference and a BoR on the same day, and these three got two of each in one meeting. There are some who refuse to be in the same patrol these boys are in.

 

As for the district, the district recently had a "fact or fiction" night at the monthly roundtable meeting. It was made clear that there is no limit to the number of MBs earned by a scout from a single councilor, even if that councilor is a parent and that even if the boy went to an MB college, with the SM signing the card before the college, and came back with a finished blue card for camping, though troop records do not show he ever went to a camp, he gets the MB. (Kind of like doing orienteering in a one hour class.) Blue card presigned by SM, signed off by MB councilor, boy gets MB, period, the end.

 

Can the SM contact the MB councilor and ask how he did the entire MB in an hour? If it turns out that he admits he "fudged" parts, can the MB be denied?

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

perdidochas,

 

The signature on receipt is a promise from the Troop to the youth member:

 

- We have received your completed MB app.

- We will cut an Advancement Report and submit your MB to Council.

- We will buy you a MB patch and a MB card. (Yes, I know a few units that local make MB cards...)

 

It's most emphatically not an approval. See Eagle 92s comments about 5 up from this.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm...

 

So we've gone from First Class First Year to Star Scout First Year.

 

Sorry, John-in-KC, I have to disagree with yeh.

 

The only "promise" being made is the one that the submitting SM or Advancement Chair signs on the Advancement Report: "I certify that the following record of advancement is correct and that it meets the standards and requirements of the Boy Scouts of America." A Blue Card is an Application for a merit badge, eh? Like all applications, it can be denied.

 

And a Board of Review's job is to make sure that the work is learned and completed. They, too, can insist that a boy actually earn the badges he claims to have earned.

 

A one-hour indoor Orienteering Badge is a non-starter. So is a Camping MB with no long-term camp. Neither meet the standards and requirements of the Boy Scouts of America. No one with any sense of character or integrity would ever allow such things, even if they were signed by Big Bob M. himself.

 

Our job, our duty, our oath, our only reason for existence is to teach boys honor and integrity.

 

Whatever your position in Scouting, be it unit or district or council, if yeh don't have the personal integrity to say "no" to a clearly erroneous or falsified award then do the Movement a favor and have the decency to resign your position and membership.

 

So, yes, momof7scouts, of course the SM, the AC, the CC, and/or the COR should call the MBC and find out what's going on. And of course if the MBC admits that the standards weren't met the MB application should be denied. And of course the SM, CC, and/or COR should be having a heart-to-heart with the district and council advancement chairs about their expectations of integrity and proper MB counseling at that level, and of course if they find that some MBC is doin' a lousy job they should refuse to allow boys in their troop to use 'em again.

 

Honor and integrity are obvious, of course. Even more to the kids than to us. Our actions speak so loudly that they can't hear our words.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[ScoutNut 147]

OK, so you have parents signing off for any, and all merit badges. The pertinent question is are these parents REGISTERED MERIT BADGE COUNSELORS? Are they REGISTERED MBC's for the badges they are signing off on (orienteering)?

 

If there is a question about the qualifications of these parents to be MBC's it should be addressed to the District Advancement Chair. If they are actually registered, council approved them, and council can un-approve them.

 

If they are NOT registered Merit Badge Counselors for the badges they are signing off on, then simply ignore them.

[ScoutNut 147]

It is entirely possible, and well within BSA rules, for a Scout to have 2 BOR's in one evening for T-2-1 ranks. The requirements for these ranks can all be done together, and often are completed together. There is no reason,or BSA policy, that states there MUST be any kind of wait between the T-2-1 ranks.

 

For Star, Life, and Eagle, there are tenure requirements that must be met.

 

 

[moosetracker 132]

Hear! Hear! Beavah.. I love your words! I was coming back to ask if the COR (who seems to have the courage to make a stand against this) could call the MBC and see what he signed off on.. If the MB was handed to him with the parents signing off more then one or two quick requirements, he would not know that they were not legal MB for the Badge, or that the SM hadn't approved them for being the boys MBC.. They virtually have trick them into doing the final sign-off then are pushing it be accepted because some MBC they tricked into signing it signed it..

 

I also was thinking that the SM (although I don't think he is standing up to these parents).. Should check and/or assign who the MBC for the badge is before he signs the MB and if that MBC is not the signiture for ALL the requirements I would think that would be reason to deny the MB, because the boy did not use the MBC he was assigned to..

 

Also if any of the requirements are signed by the parents and they are not valid MBC for the badge, whether the SM has made a policy that the parents can not be the MBC of their own son, or if he hasn't been a good gatekeeper as to assigning the MBC in the past, if the parents are not registered MBC's for the MB then it is invalid and should be challenged regardless of who did the last requirement & signed the card as completed.. You can switch MBC mid-way, but they old & new MBC have to be valid registered MBC.. (Of course that would only delay the parents until they signed up as MBC for every MB their son has yet completed..) But it could be a way to back out of those that have to date been wrongfully signed-off on.. Then if the SM would start being a good gatekeeper, that would prevent future ones regardless of how many Merit badges the parents want to sign up for.

 

If the COR is standing up to the parents, then the COR should insist the SM start doing his job and being a good gatekeeper to prevent this..

 

If your lucky the parents will take their little paper stars or First class or whatever rank they get to without earning it in your troop and go to another troop where they can start their tricks all over again until that troop wises up to their games.

 

I would not even feel sorry they are not getting quick sign-off for the tenderfoot - 1st class, if their father is the ASM going on camping trips with them, and concentrating on running them through hoops simply for the sake of getting them signed off on it. (of course it sounds like you have several new cross-overs who are doing this, so the others are getting though easier then one.)

 

[Eagle92 110]

Again don't have the book in front of me, But found 1 version online here:

 

http://scoutmaster.typepad.com/2008AdvancementGuideBook.pdf

 

Page 26 or 28 under Scout Buddy System

 

A Scout must have a buddy with him at each

meeting with a merit badge counselor. A Scouts buddy

can be another Scout, a parent or guardian, a brother

or sister, or a relative or friend. From his Scoutmaster,

the Scout obtains a signed merit badge application

and the name of the appropriate merit badge

counselor. (emphasis mine) The Scout sets up his first appointment

with the counselor. The counselor should explain the

requirements to the Scout. The Scout and his buddy

then meet as appropriate with the counselor until the

Scout completes the badges requirements.

 

So a SM needs to approve the MBC prior to the scout working on a MB with the MBC.

 

Also a way to not recognize a MB that a scout gives you a blue card for, if you have serious questions, is to see if the MBC is a registered MBC. From the same page

 

A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has

been earned, provided the counselor is a registered

counselor for the merit badge ( emphasis mine).

 

Now if your district MBC list is like mine, it's a mess, so I would review whether the MBC that signed off of a questionable MB had ever been on the list.

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

Nut said "For Star, Life, and Eagle, there are tenure requirements that must be met. "

 

Why I want tenure back in the T-2-1 levels. It gives them time to learn and practice the skills for a period if time.

[emb021 16]

"Why I want tenure back in the T-2-1 levels. It gives them time to learn and practice the skills for a period if time."

 

This is done with the requirements to attend so many events, as this will occur over several months, instead of forcing the kid to say at each rank for x amount of time.

 

Actually, for me I had meet all the requirements for T-2-1 BUT having earned citizenship skill award. And had done so for a long time. But once I got the skill award, I had to wait those months to get 2C & 1C. What purpose did that serve?

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, it's one of those trade-offs, eh?

 

A strong program and an experienced SM will use the T-2-1 advancement well. They'll make it fun, they'll take their time, they'll let the lads go at their own pace, they'll give 'em time to practice and learn before being "tested" or challenged. In the end a First Class scout will mean something in terms of skill and character. So for that sort of program, adding on tenure requirements doesn't make much sense, and only holds up a lad who got stuck for a bit over pull ups or swimming or whatnot.

 

The stronger a program, the more experienced the leaders, the less guidance they need (and the more guidance interferes with doin' the right thing).

 

A weak program, an inexperienced SM, and pushy parents will use da T-2-1 advancement poorly. That's why I never cared for FCFY, eh? Strong and experienced folks tend to ignore it and just work with individual lads, but weak programs tend to think that they need to set up classes and timetables to rush every boy to First Class or better in a year. For those programs, more explicit guidance of some form seems necessary to help 'em keep from running off the rails.

 

Properly speakin', it should come from a savvy commissioner, but the commish corps most places is just a hollow shell of trained but shallowly experienced folks themselves. So the temptation, and perhaps the need, is to try to give more explicit guidance through rules and requirements. Includin' tenure requirements, perhaps.

 

It's an age-old tension, eh? Da BSA program by and large assumes some experience, character, and common-sense on the part of its leaders as being preferable to tryin' to create 1000-page guidebooks and long, procedural training.

 

Beavah

 

[Twocubdad 665]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.....

 

Do I understand this correctly that the parents are signing off particular requirements on blue cards, then the boys are taking these blue cards to the local merit badge factory -- um, college and the counselors there are signing the MBs as complete? Are you kidding me? And the concern is that the troop is holding up these boys from advancing?

 

Can you say FRAUD?

 

Yeah, I'd love to have a sit-down with the district/council advancement folks over this one. Bring the paperwork for an appeal, I'll help fill it out.

 

Look, I don't like the idea that the SM's inaccessibility is holding up boy's advancement. Perhaps the SM is trying to get a handle on these boys' out of control advancement, although I disagree with his methods, if that's the case. If he's battling this bunch of Advancement Guide-thumping parents, maybe he knows what he's doing.

 

Was it Justice Jackson who said the consitution is not a suicide pact. Neither is the Advancement Guide. I would not stand by and let these folks quote advancement policy in order to defraud the advancement program.

 

 

[Eagledad 2779]

When we had a couple over aggressive MB Counselor parents, we avoided confrontation with the parents by requiring all the troop's MB Counselors take our troop MBC training again. The training was just basically teaching what the BSA and troop committee expects from the counselors. Not that the two expectations are different, but it was the opportunity for the trainer to explain what the SM was not going to stand for Parent Child MB counseling abuse. It worked pretty good. We didnt forbide it, but we scrutinized it.

 

We had one parent with two sons in the troop who tried to hide his manipulation of the system by not becoming a MBC himself and instead recruited friends and relatives to do to be his sons counselors. He would sign them up on his own then turn the paperwork in to the council. His sons were racking up badges pretty quick until we forced the counselors take our training. That scared them off. We then asked the parent to be our Advancement Chairman mentor so he would be forced to learn and work by the BSA guidelines. He turned out to be a pretty good chairman and we didnt have anymore parent troubles after him.

 

Barry

 

 

[MomToEli 55]

"IMNSHO, every Scout should earn his MBs from adults outside his own Troop!" (How DO you guys get italics in your posts???)

 

I couldn't agree with you more, John-in-KC. In an ideal world I totally agree.

 

What I feel even stronger about is that no MB should be earned in a large group setting, with all requirements being done in that setting - like MBU or (or MB class at the troop level).

 

"A Scoutmaster has to approve a MB before it's awarded."

 

Not exactly. The Scoutmaster has to approve a MB before it is taken. The MB Counselor signs off that the boy has met the requirements. The SM is not supposed to re-examine him before it is awarded.

[MomToEli 55]

Interesting turn this thread has taken. Momto7Scouts, I guess I have lost your position in here somewhere. I started out thinking you were at odds with the SM, and perhaps the Committee, because boys couldn't get things signed off, there was no way a boy who had a missing requirement for a MB completed, the troop adds to the requirements, and boys attempting to take on their Eagle Projects were being made to jump through hoops.

 

Now it has transitioned to there are three families trying to take over the troop, ramrod their kids through the program and have kids advancing far faster than ever imagined - which means they are getting signed off, at least.

 

So, I don't really understand your question.