Committee rules running amuck

[moosetracker 132]

So, I hosted my first Intro to out Leader training.. Most went well except for me.. Thank goodness for my son who saved the day, anyway another story..

 

I was talking to a participant who is outside my district. He (the scoutmaster) and someone else another registered adult leader took the scouts on an camping outing. They return to be informed by the committee that the boys can not get credit for the event, (I guess in it counting toward the camping merit badge, or camping trips to get into OA).. Here is the reason. Neither of them had taken the "Intro to outdoor leader training"..

 

So the boys are being punished if the Registered adult leaders don't take their required training?? Give me a break!!!

 

I guess I should the info to the council training chair since the people our out of our district.

[The Blancmange 67]

That's just so messed up I wouln't even know where to start. I feel sorry for the boys in that troop. Why would people with that sort of approach even want to sit on a unit committee? Certainly not to help the boys or the program.

 

Watch, these guys will go back and this committee will tell them their IOLS (or whatever the new name is) doesnt' count because it wasn't run by their district.

[dg98adams 18]

Sounds like that Troops committee has a SM who either had not been trained or refused to get trained (obviously neither since he came to OLS). It's the committee's role to have qualified/trained leaders.

 

So, without more info I know the Committee exists to seek out/obtain leadership, get them trained and support the Boys program, not to punish the Boys....

 

 

[Thomas54 10]

 

 

Scouts who did not get credit for this camp out should demand their money back from the unit's treasury. Since the committee sees this as a rouge scouting event, the scouts should have their money returned and an apology from the the CC.

 

 

[Eagledad 2777]

I'm not sure they can do that, it used to be a scoutmaster's signature. I've not heard of committee working against the boys. Sounds like the adults need to get some things worked out besides training.

 

Barry

[Eagle92 110]

Could it be considered PATROL CAMPING, with the leaders practicing for IOLS?

[moosetracker 132]

I don't think he had been SM very long, may have resisted training a little as he was one of those guys whose career and personal intrest made him qualified to teach practically all the skills. But, although this is out of the district our troop and so out of district for the one I am training chair on, the troop is in my tiny rural home town, so I know the last 2 Scout Masters therefore this one must be pretty new.

 

Anyway he has offered to be on my training staff for othe IOLS trainings, and I may take him up on it even though he is out of district. He was a very knowledgable person.

 

He is thinking of leaving this troop and forming a Sea Scout crew. I always thought you had to be close to an ocean, but he says kayaks in our town lake and some outings to the ocean are fine. Someone else interested in starting it with him has a big sail boat that they can use, but I believe it is not on our lake, but they need to travel to reach it, so only can use it on occasion.

[moosetracker 132]

eagle92 - can't be patrol camping, as it was more then one patrol on the camping trip, it was boys from the troop.

 

Your right Eagledad, like the whole committee should go back to training to listen to the part of "You can't change requirements for the boys, to make it harder or easier." the only requirement to count the camping is to camp overnight.. could be backpacking, summer camp, tailgate camping, igloo camping etc.. There isn't any mention as to a tour permit or the adult leadership.. So it could be patrol camping with leadership no where in site. but nothing in the requirement states your adult leadership must be IOLS trained.

[Beavah 205]

Deep Breath, people.

 

Just outa curiosity, what's da difference between a unit committee saying "yeh can't take boys on an official campout if you're not trained" and national saying "you can't be registered if you're not trained?"

 

Sounds to me like it's completely within da committee's purview to say that adults can't take kids on a campout until they're trained. And if those adults do it anyways, then it's not an official campout for da purposes of advancement.

 

No different than if some fellow claimed to be a MBC who really wasn't trained or registered, eh? The boys may have "done" the badge with him, but it wouldn't count for advancement.

 

This is da sort of thing we're all going to be facing as we move toward "mandatory training".

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle92 110]

Good point Beav, but it sounded like an after the fact thing, i.e. "Oh you took the troop out camping this past weekend, well it can't count 'cause you aren't trained."

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Eagle92, I get to say this once or so a year

 

I think you are being a little rough on the Beavah...

 

Beavah makes a good point, what about Merit Badge Counselors, or rather people who "Counsel" a merit badge and have never been approved by the Council/District to Counsel that badge and then when called on it, say "What, you are going to punish the youth?"

 

People have to be accountable, don't they?

 

Then again, did the Scoutmaster and ASM know this was the Committee position before they left on the trip?

 

I hate when the youth are fodder for adult games

[shortridge 184]

Concur with Eagle92. If a CO wants to require that its leaders be fully trained, that's entirely its prerogative. But it's really not smart to apply that rule retroactively when it only punishes the boys for ... what? going camping? being Scouts?

[The Blancmange 67]

What it sounds like it that the committe and SM have gotten into a pi$$ing match and are, indeed, trying to punish the boys. Certainly a unit committee can require its leaders to be trained; probably a pretty good idea. But when a new SM takes over without much planning for the transition (he certainly could have taken the training beforehand), should the unit's entire outdoor program come to a halt?

 

Why didn't the committee fix this earlier when the SM presented them with the annual program calendar that the PLC had prepared? That way, the committee could have fulfilled its duties and provided the proper support. Why didn't some of these sage committe members volunteer to go on the outing if they felt the SM was not qualified?

 

Even if the SM had been dragging his feet, based on the information presented, I blame the committee for not coming up with a better solution.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, first let me just say that not getting an award is not a punishment. It's just not getting an award. If yeh don't make valedictorian, yeh aren't being punished, yeh just didn't make valedictorian. Despite what those helicopter parents who sue school districts over the valedictory claim.

 

Blanc, we just don't know anything about da circumstances, eh? And neither does moosetracker. Could be there was no annual calendar, or this wasn't on it. Could be da committee thought another trained leader was goin', but didn't. I wouldn't go about assigning blame in any event, but I certainly wouldn't do it on da very little information we have. A disgruntled SM looked for a sympathetic ear at training. Moose gave it to him. Happens all the time.

 

Yah, seems like the committee yanked da SM's leash and he's annoyed by it. Perhaps they also wanted to make clear to the parents the difference between an official and an "unofficial" outing, which is perfectly reasonable.

 

Too hard to say from afar.

 

Now, just like da MB that gets disallowed because the counselor wasn't approved, I'd expect the adults to then work with the boys to make sure they can proceed ahead. But it sounds like their leaders are gettin' trained and so they're doin' that.

 

Like I said, this is da sort of thing we're goin' to see all over the place as we move toward mandatory training, so it's a good thing to think about.

 

Beavah

 

[moosetracker 132]

It would be a good point. But, my understanding is it is fine for the SM to take the scouts on outings, there was no quibbling about he could not take them anywhere. It is just they don't count it towards anything for the boys until they are trained. Of course it is a one sided account.

 

We too as a committee put in a rule for our troop that to go on outings, the adult leader had to do all the on-line required training available, and had a year from registration to get the required training.. We never as a committee applied it to a punishment on the boys if they didn't get trained. Just the adult after a year had to stop going on the outings until trained. If the adult went 1 1/2 years past registration with still no Specifics or IOLS training, and the committee didn't catch it on the 1 year anniversary, we would never have back out all the events the scouts went on as not counting because the adult went past his due date, and we didn't catch it sooner.