Charter Organization denying women as assistant Scoutmaster or the option to campout with troop

[Basementdweller 608]

Just leave the Troop. You will never respect their rules and it will bother your.

 

To answer your question

It is rare for a Cub Crossover Parent to be much more than a CM, ACM or DL.

 

I am surprised that you and your son were not recruited by a number of troops. If I was aware of an experienced highly trained and motivated scouter with a son crossing over I would recruit them heavily, phone calls and visits to the house.

 

The fact you did not note whether you were recruited by any Troops or not raises some questions??????????

 

I would imagine most District level staff are too busy to camp with their sons. Eagle COR, BOR and other district stuff interfere. In our district most of the District staff no longer have boys active in scouting.

 

I would hope being on Roundtable staff you would have talked to the SM a couple of times before you actually joined the Troop. I would have hoped you would have talked about the program before you joined. The SM should have offered you the ASM job if it was needed. I am going to bet you showed up with both scout and volunteer applications already filled out.

 

Remember you are new, It is bad manners to come into someone house, Troop or Pack and make a bunch of demands right off the bat. Bad manners.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, it's da CO's call, eh? I think CO's should be more actively involved in selecting leaders, male and female, for their units.

 

The CO having made it's call, now it's your call whether to stay in their unit.

 

Yeh say your son has made new friends and likes it. Big question for you is whether yeh think it's the right place for him. Whether they share enough of your values for it to be a good fit for your family.

 

You will never find a perfect troop. Every troop is goin' to do some things you disagree with or don't understand. So no matter where yeh go, there's goin' to be something you just have to smile and be tolerant of if yeh want your son to be involved in Scouting.

 

There are other things that go against your core values or your personal needs in a way where it's just never goin' to be a good fit. It'll bug you and frustrate you in ways that interfere with your son's scouting, and your son may be exposed to viewpoints you disagree strongly with.

 

Only you can decide which this is.

 

Beavah

 

[jhankins 10]

I don't like the idea of being told I can't do something, but who does??

 

That being said, every charter has the right to choose who they want as leaders in what positions. I respect that belief. But what it boils down to for me as a mom and a scouter, I want what's best for my son.

 

My boy is currently interviewing a SPL and Scoutmaster of a LDS troop. I will be able to serve on the committee, but I could only go camping on the troop's family campouts. And that's okay with me. I trust the leaders and I'm signing off on this decision. If at any time I don't like what I hear coming back from campouts, we'll revisit the issue, but for now -- I'm happy with his presumptive choice.

[Pack212Scouter 10]

Our CO has the same policy. Once a youth moves into middle school programs it is same-sex for all programs, including leaders and youth. There are many reasons for this sort of policy. Youth protection (more so on the girl side, than the boy as is evidenced by history); posibility of a negative impression to outsiders (ie, a female in the woods with a bunch of adolecent boys); learning adult behaviors and values from a mentor of the same sex; and even better relationships, etc. I see it as a positive in alot of senses. Most young men now days get plenty of exposure to female role models. What many are lacking and needing is exposure to positive MALE role models.

[SMT224 10]

Wow.

 

I'm glad our CO has no such policy. While we currently have no female ASM, we have in the past, and they've brought an excellent skill set to the Scouts - one that the male ASM did not have. To make such a restriction seems to me to miss out on valuable knowledge, skills, and abilities they otherwise would not have. I see no negative influence they have had on the Scouts - quite the opposite in fact.

 

I would highly recommend you find another Troop - this CO has some real fear of women it would seem to me - would they be a bad influence on the Scouts, or just the old guys in the Troop. What are they so afraid of? And a separate hotel? That is just too much. Not that we have ever used a hotel - we camp!

 

This discussion really makes me wonder about this... "Charter organizations can be more restrictive in who they want as a leader for any reason."

 

Really? Really!? How far can this go? Any reason at all? Race, creed, or religion? Are their Troops that restrict leadership by religion? How about race? What about political party?

 

 

[moosetracker 132]

I am reverent of their policies otherwise If not, I would have advised nwasness to sue them up thier ass. I did not instruct her to stay and fight for her beliefs. I told her to move somewhere where she and her son would be welcomed. Somewhere were men and women are treated as equals in the program.

 

These are antiquated beliefs. And women are being treated as inferior. Well maybe not inferior, just seprate, with cooties.. (I am sure that the women have a nice sewing circle that mwasness can join, and they equally exclude the men from joining.)If though the chuch want to have them, and they have people who want to buy into it. Let them have them.

 

Nwasness does not though have to conform to their belief system. Worse yet, she does not have to raise her son up into that belief system. Therefore, she should move.

 

You can respect them for their beliefs if they are not forcing their beliefs down your throat.

 

I would consider the Omish to have antiquated beliefs. I can respect them for it. In some ways I can envy their ability to live in a gentler, quieter time and not be a part of this rat-race of life the rest of us live in. If though I went to live in an Omish community, I would probably kill them or myself before the week was out.

 

I wonder if this troop stay at a hotel/motel, they instuct the establishment to rid the entire place of any women before they arrive? I mean if their own women can't stay in the same hotel, what sort of bad influence would strange women have? I would love to see them in a room that was next door to "interesting sounds" comeing through the wall.

[Eagle92 110]

Lots of good opinions.

 

Base hits on something, a highly trained leader will be sought after and attempted to be recruited into a unit. I know that even before my now TC son joined, I had 4 packs chasing after me, and one CM trying to talk me into starting a new pack if I wouldn't join his pack. Also being on the district committee, you should know what units would meet your son's needs and have them rated. Then let your son see which one fits him. I know that looking into packs, I had them ranked in my district, and had a list of packs I was planned on visiting with my son.

 

I also know the concerns of CO selecting leaders. After joining my current pack, I discovered that the CO wants someone with youth experience in the movement. One candidate for the CM position was not selected b/c he had no youth experience. He served as an ACM instead.

[BrentAllen 10]

SMT,

Yes, there are Troops that restrict membership to a certain religion, including leaders. If a Jewish synagogue charters a Troop and wants to restrict membership to only Orthodox Jews, they have that right. If a Catholic church wants to restrict membership in their Troop to only members of their church, they have that right. If an Indian tribe chartered a Troop and wanted to restrict membership to only their tribe, they could do that. And I imagine if your local county Democrat club wanted to charter a Troop and limit membership to only Democrats, they could probably do that, as well. I'm not sure how many 11 year olds would know whether they are a Democrat, Republican or other, so I think such a Troop would have a hard time surviving. :-)

[SSScout 1615]

Moose:

"Omish"? Could you mean "Amish", as in "Pennsylvania Dutch" (which have little or nothing to do with Holland)? Good people, but you won't find any Scouts among them.

 

Jakob Ammann, Swiss Annabaptist...

[moosetracker 132]

Yes, I mis-spelled Amish is correct. They may be big in Pennsylvania. I saw them more when I spent summers in Illinois.. In fact they would come to my churches(non-Amish) annual ice-cream socials.

 

No I figured no Boyscouts, in their group. I was just saying if I joined their community, not their troop. When joining a troop, it is a community, maybe only for a few hours and weekends a year. But, still it is a community. They are instilling their values you your children and on you.

 

Reverence starts with yourself. You have to be reverent to yourself and your own beliefs, before you can be reverent of others. No one will have the exact beliefs as yours, but there are communities that will be far removed from your own beliefs and if you were to move into them. You would find you could not live in them.

 

Let them enjoy their lifestyles, and beliefs as you enjoy yours. But you will be able to be more respectful of them from afar. Not while they are trying to alter your beliefs, or you try to alter theirs.

 

The Amish was just an example of a group, I think alot of us would say we admire. But, whose values and ways of life are different from most of ours. It would be hard for any of us to move into that lifestyle, regardless of if we admire it or not.

 

I could have cited others that people more or less may disagree with. Like that community who believe in polygamy and whose leader chooses the mates for the women.. I don't know the name of it, but I know they were in the news when the children were taken away, and some women escaped from it. Or they one up in our neck of NH who is trying to set up a community that believes that they don't have to follow any of the governmental laws. These are just groups that all you can do by way of being reverent is to let them be. You go your way, and I'll go mine.

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

They may be big in Pennsylvania.

 

You never saw the movie Witness? or the most forgetable "For Richer for Poorer"?

 

Lancaster, PA (not all that far from where I live) is home to quite a few Amish. I would send you a link to the Genuine Amish Quilt Website in Bird-in-Hand PA but I can't find it right now.

 

And let us remember that "Pennsylvania Dutch" originally was "Pennsylvania Deutch", as in German but the Deutch got reworked to Dutch faster than Saint Nicholas became Santa Claus.

 

The "Kentucky Long Rifle" of Frontier legend was actually made in Pennsylvania by the German gunsmiths and used in "Kentucky", at the time Kentucky was anything west of the Appalachians. It is the Pennsyvania Long Rifle but I digress

 

Sorry, I love history

 

PS. The CO can do what they did

[Troop24 12]

BrentAllen said " And I imagine if your local county Democrat club wanted to charter a Troop and limit membership to only Democrats, they could probably do that, as well. I'm not sure how many 11 year olds would know whether they are a Democrat, Republican or other, . . ." and I just thought I would play a little on that theme. I am not sure there are many eleven year olds that can truly proclaim what religion they will espouse in adulthood either except that of which they are are exposed to from birth by their parents. I think we forget sometimes how impressionable these young fellas are that we are mentoring in our troops, crews, and ships.

 

Just sayin' . . .

[perdidochas 658]

I think the best thing is to do the following:

1) Discuss it with your son

2) Have him visit other troops

3) Then decide if he wants to continue with this troop or not.

 

I can see both sides of the issue. I'm not sure I'd want my son in such a setting, but then again, we're Catholic, and traditional Baptists and Catholics don't get along well (at least in the Southeast, where I live).

[Eagle92 110]

P,

I hear you about that one. First time I encountered anti-Catholic bias in my life was as a DE trying to start a unit at my church. Church was willing to provide space and limited financial resources to get started, but couldn't get enough leadership to get it going. Local elementary school had the parents willing to be leaders, but no place to meet. Not encountering this bias before (grew in heavily Catholic New Orleans), I thought it would be a no brainer to use the parents at the school, and the church's facilities. Church didn't have a problem and welcomed it. The potential CM called me, cursed me out for suggesting the Catholic Church as a CO, and promptly decided the heck with Scouting since they let Catholics in.

[acco40 95]

Before anyone blows a gasket - take a deep breadth and read carefully.

 

Men and women are not equal. That is a fact. Should they be given equal protection under the law? Different question. Should they be treated differently in the BSA? The fact is they are (facilities, sleeping arrangements, etc.). Used to be only females could be den leaders. Only males Cubmaster and Scoutmaster. Now, the BSA allows both genders to serve these roles and as many have correctly pointed out, charter organizations may be more restrictive.

 

My son may not play on the girls basketball team at his high school yet he is a better basketball player than the majority of the players. Is that fair? My daughter is restricted on what roles she may aspire to in the USN, USA, USMC and USAF (she has her sights on being a submariner which is now feasible ). Is that fair? There are all female and all male schools and hot debates if those are a good thing or not.

 

Part of the role of adults in the BSA is to serve as a role model. If youth troop members are restricted to males (boys) only, are not adult males better role models than adult females? Should this cause a unit to restrict females in membership (i.e. no youth, limited adult roles)?

 

These are all good questions and I'd hesitate to label any troop that limited adult females to specific roles as "antiquated", "wrong", etc. My son and I chose not to join a troop that didn't allow female Scoutmasters but that was not the only reason we decided not to go with that troop. In the troop that I served as Scoutmaster I had many single mothers tell me that the reason they had their son in Boy Scouts was so that they would get some adult male influence in their son's life. I've also known female Scoutmasters who have done an excellent job. Not all troops are best for all boys. I think having a variety of choices is a good thing.

 

For my own children, I have choosen to not have them attend single gender schools. The world isn't single gender and I think a co-ed scouting program would be wonderful (a la Scouts Canada) but I admit their are drawbacks.(This message has been edited by acco40)