what does it take

[bear dad 13]

Hello,

I was wondering from those who has started a BS troop from scratch what all does it take? Let me say I am no way considering this as but only trying to compare this from starting a new CS pack from scratch, (which is what I am a part of now).

 

Guess you have some of same struggles in both, how have some you that been thru it, start with camping items, tents, trailer, etc.....?

I figure with all that goes into starting a troop it would be harder for them as it would be in cs packs. Just becuase of gear and such, I ran into a SM for a local troop he said that what the troop is using right now is mostly his stuff. They are working on getting more stuff, just bought a few tents.

The other side is how the boy lead program works as you might only have 5, 6 boys to start.

 

Anyway just was thinking about it as I have helped started a pack from scratch and what it has been like. Thanks

 

[Scoutfish 16]

I'm going to go way, way way out on a limb and take a stab of a guess at etimating a situation:

 

 

While I have no doubt that starting a Troop is going to be hard, require alot ofr work and be an uphill battle for a few years........I'll bet that you yorself could do it.

 

See, wether it is harder or easier may not apply here. Why? Well...apples and oranges for starters.

TRhen on top of that, you have some experience of pulling a new pack out of thin air.

 

Granted, alot of particulars and details are different...but you are talking about an older group of boys. That little bit of age and maturity may make things easier...especially if you can offer something that the existing troops can't.

 

[Lisabob 13]

I haven't done this so I could also be totally off-base. But I think that starting a troop might actually be harder. Not only do you need more (expensive) gear to get a quality outdoor program going, you also need more adults with actual know-how, who are willing to spend larger amounts of sustained time. It is one thing to commit to a one-hour pack meeting once a month; another to commit to being responsible for other people's kids in the woods, all weekend long, every month.

 

Also, the "vision thing" is more important with a troop. In cubs, as long as there are fun things going on and people are basically following the program, you don't get too many philosophical arguments (you get a lot of practical arguments and occasional power trips or personality clashes, but that's different). In boy scouts, you get a LOT of disagreement about what "boy led" means and how to make it a reality. That fundamental disagreement can lead to some very challenging inter-personal dynamics.

 

Third, personalities are more important. In cubs, because interaction is relatively short-term and a boy's parent(s) are typically there too, an adult who isn't always fabulous at relating to children can still be a passable leader. In boy scouts, you need a person with a strong ability to relate well to teenage boys under physically and emotionally challenging circumstances. Many adults are poorly suited for this, but a good troop can't really exist without a critical mass of these folks.

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

IF, I were going to do this...

I'd start with my Committee and whatever local policies.

You have a unique opportunity to start as a uniformed or casual Troop from day one. Will the troop help upfront with an over time payment plan for those who cannot afford to upfront the uniform cost.

To emphasize Backpacking skills whether or not you choose a car camp, or even if Car camping is your style.

To set expectations about fundraising and how it is distributed - by hour worked per Scout - Troop funds or a combination. How much fundraising? What is expected of the boys to be provided thru dues or fees and how much does the Troop provide?

Get MB Counselors in place.

Will you have a Troop Trailer, if so remember that it's utility may depend on what vehicle is available to pull it - i.e. if it takes a dually to pull it then you may want to downsize unless those are going to be incredibly common.

Are the Adults okay with just YPT (No) or will you require that they attain a Trained status for their position in a reasonable amount of time?

 

Then it's a matter of Program - If it's good and there are Boys available you'll grow...

And if there aren't boys available then at least you are putting on a good experience for the ones you have!

 

[Eagledad 2779]

I have done both and it is interesting to think back on. Lisabob hits a lot of really good points.

 

Actually I remember money being a bigger problem in the pack because its harder to raise without a lot of planning and communication. Our Pack committee was always worried about having enough money just for badges each month. I am amazed how much money is required just for awards at pack meetings. I was reminded recently of this when I spoke with a member of this forum who has started a pack. Money is always a topic at pack committee meetings.

 

With the troop, we just went out and washed cars for a couple of Saturdays and had enough money to buy just enough equipment. When we needed more money, we come up with a quick fundraiser. Its to raise money at the troop level because the boys take a lot of the responsibility. Garage sales, hamburger sales at the church, pancake breakfasts and so on all can be planned and done in matter of a couple weeks in a troop. A pack requires at least a couple months to organize.

 

Lisa is right that the vision of the troop is harder compared to the packs, but new troop adults arent as hindered by lack of vision as the Pack leaders when they first start out. At the district level, I had to work with unit adult disputes and I worked three packs disputes to every one troop troop dispute basically because of the vision, or really lack there of.

 

Even if the troop leaders know nothing of the program and have no vision, they still know enough to load up all the boys and in cars and go camping. All the adults can agree to that and it is one simple plan for ALL the boys. But the leaders in a pack are more broken up. Each adult basically is totally responsible for one part (one age group) of the program and doesn't have a clue about the rest of the adults. For the most part, one plan doesn't work for all the boys. They certianly don't know how their part of the program effects the other parts. So it is easy for the committee to get lost in the little stuff like training, den meetings, pack meetings, Blue and Gold, Webelos Graduation and so on. Tigers alone is the single most difficult program to do successfully in the BSA. And the loss of scouts show it. If the pack leaders dont have a vision to link everyone together, and most dont, then they can get lost rather quickly.

 

And then, once the Pack adults start to figure it out, they move up to the troops. Sure packs should hand over their experience to the next leaders, but the far majority dont get that plan that far a head because its hard enough just to find den leaders, much less future CMs and CCs.

 

Its not so much that Troop adults hang around longer than adults do in the packs because the cub program is five years long. But Troop leaders hang around each other a lot more (on a weekly basis) and can quickly reflect on the program performance, then change or tune it to run better the next week. I would guess that most Pack adults dont get to do that but once or twice a year. True, they do get to meet once a month at pack meetings, but they are still herding the boys, so there isnt that true one to one time adults really need to come together. So, that leaves a lot of work on the adults who make the program work. Many here would be surprised just how much work is involved to make sure that somebody has the responsibiliity to picked up the badges for at the scout office for the pack meetings. If they forget, the Pack meeting is a mess and the boys have to wait a month. Do that in a troop, and they only have to wait a week.

 

Yep looking back on it, if I had to do it all over again, I would pick starting the troop.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it.

 

We started the Troop in Sept. 2007 with 6 boys, who had crossed over into a large Troop in March, 2007. We went to Summer Camp with that Troop, and several other parents and I decided it was time to start our own unit.

 

1. Your CO. We couldn't have succeeded without a very supportive CO. The church (I'm a member, which helps a lot) had an old equipment trailer from the days when they had a Troop, back in 1993. It needed a lot of work, which the church picked up. They also bought us a new Troop flag, which is pretty expensive. I didn't think we needed much money to get started, and we could support ourselves. I think you need around $1,000 to get started - to buy Patrol equipment (we don't own Troop tents, add more to that number if you want them), and mainly be able to put down deposits on trips. Obviously, you need a place to meet and hopefully store gear. Beyond that, you need a CO who is going to really support you. Our Senior Pastor is constantly praising us, and mentioning our successes. He is our biggest cheerleader.

 

2. Trained, experienced SM and CC with a strong, clear vision. I was fortunate to grow up in a great Troop with a very demanding SM. Our CC had the same experience, in Virginia. The two of us rarely talk about our shared vision - it just happens. We are on the same page on every part of the program. I reached the rank of Life, he is an Eagle, we were both SPLs in our Troops. We both believe in old-school, traditional Scouting. Patrol Method, mixed-age patrols, backpacking, canoeing, skills, High Adventure, uniforming. We both expect our Scouts to be very active in the program.

 

3. Dedicated ASMs. A SM can't do it all by himself. He has to have trained, dedicated assistants. We have high standards for our ASMs. They must go through all the Adult Leader training, and then be active with the Troop for one year to be considered for an ASM. The first year, we didn't have any official ASMs, though I had several "in training." We now have 3 fully trained ASMs, and 2 more in training. In addition, we have a couple of dedicated dads who will provide transportation and go camping with us, if need be. Our CC goes on nearly every trip, as well - he loves camping!

 

4. Supportive parents. The parents have to buy into the program and trust the leaders. We have a strong committee and parents who are willing to support us. We ask a lot of them and their sons, but they understand what we are trying to do.

 

5. Communication. Whether it is a web page or email group, it has to be easy to access and easy to use. You've got to have a way to quickly and easily reach your Scouts and parents with information. Boy Scouts is so much different than Webelos, I have found I really need to train the parents at least as much as I do the boys. Training the parents usually takes place through email or our web page. Our web page runs us $99/year, a real bargain.

 

6. Record-keeping. We use TroopMaster, as do most Troops, I would guess. The record-keeping is much more important than in Cubs. You'll spend some money on this, and it is worth every penny. Getting started with a small group is much easier than trying to add it later, when you have grown in size.

 

As SM, you have to understand what you are getting into. Every Tuesday night, I know where I'm going to be from 7:00 - 9:00 PM. I know I'm going to give up a weekend every month for the Troop. I will be at Summer Camp for a week, and will hopefully be attending a High Adventure trip over the summer, as well. I have a job that allows me to take that much time off, as well as for a family vacation. It can be very demanding, so your heart really has to be in it. The upside - it may be the most rewarding thing you ever do, outside of your family and church. If I had to measure the give and take in dollars, for every dollar I put in, I get around $10 back. Not a bad investment. :-)

[bear dad 13]

Thanks for the comments, like I was saying not looking at doing this, but just tring to compare the effort it takes for packs and troops.

For me it is has been like pulling teeth just to get our pack going,of course it could be easier if we had more people to step up and do something. Thanks

[Stosh 3452]

Hmmm, my experience is far different. I haven't started a Pack, but I'm thinking that with the amount of adult participation required it would be by far the most difficult, especially if that participation didn't materialize.

 

A Troop on the other hand would require far less adults because all the boys should be the one's developing the program and putting things together. Of course if the boys wanted to be treated like Cubs, then I'm thinking it would be more like starting a Pack.

 

My Crews and Posts I have started were the easiest because the maturity of the scouts helped in initial stages.

 

Tents, trailers, flags and such don't make a Troop successful, the boys make the troop successful and the adult's main responsibility to to make that opportunity available to them.

 

Stosh

[DenZero 10]

You might try finding an old struggling troop to partner with. They may have plenty of equipment that you can borrow and they could benefit by being able to do some joint activities.

[BrentAllen 10]

The question was about starting a Troop from scratch, not inheriting one.

 

I remember how easy things were when we only had one Patrol. The boys were all 11 and they really didn't get the planning, but it was pretty easy to throw everything in a car or two and take off on a trip. Now, with 42 boys and 5 patrols, things get a little more complicated. Luckily our church has two 15-passenger vans they let us use (when available), so we don't have to take a bunch of cars on every trip. They also gave us $2,000 to purchase a new, bigger trailer. We have 41 boys going to Summer Camp, and we take all our food and cooking equipment - we cook in camp. I'm hoping we can get everything in the two trailers we have, and a pick-up or two.

[raisinemright 13]

Cool topic and very timely for me. I'm in the process of moving to a new state. I've been here about 6 months and the family will follow in late June. (finally sold the house)

 

I got hooked up with a troop to help, but the house we're buying is about 20 miles away, so we probably won't stay with that troop. My boys troop is mostly homeschooled kids as is the troop here. I called the DE and asked if there were any in our new area. There are not, but he said they would like to get one started and that he might be able to find us a CO. Coincidentally, a friend from our troop back home is transferring to my new state and will be five miles away.

 

Our old troop is only a few years old and was started by a bunch of guys with little scouting experience, so they had nothing to go on. Now some of the stuff is pretty entrenched and hard to change. Starting fresh would be really cool and an oportunity to build a strong committee, the right way and a strong patrol method. I liked the idea of teaching backpack type skills, even when car camping. I like having a trailer, but more as a place to keep all the gear. I have a personal trailer full of tent camping gear too. (big family-big tent)

 

If we took this on, we would be starting with two trained experienced leaders, two experienced socuts (Star and 1st Class) My son the Star is ASPL and has been a long time PL or APL. We'd also have a Tenderfoot. That's before we even started recruiting.

 

I'm getting kind of excited.

 

So, am I stupid or what?

[bear dad 13]

raisinemright,

 

First off hope everything works outs in the new state, job thing.

Hope your start is better than ours. We was at roundtable last night and only a hand full of people was there, which seems to be the normal thing.Not that I saying you have to go to roundtable to become a great leader, in fact some of what they have is boring to me. The other side is I hear about things and the networking I have started has been vauable to me least.

 

Think in both cases packs/troops you need help!Think that is what we are lacking most of all.You can't force someone to help, they need to be willing.The best thing I can think of is getting a parent involved someway and having them see the results of there work paying off for the boys, is the best thing.

 

 

 

[bear dad 13]

raisinemright,

 

First off hope everything works outs in the new state, job thing.

Hope your start is better than ours. We was at roundtable last night and only a hand full of people was there, which seems to be the normal thing.Not that I saying you have to go to roundtable to become a great leader, in fact some of what they have is boring to me. The other side is I hear about things and the networking I have started has been vauable to me least.

 

Think in both cases packs/troops you need help!Think that is what we are lacking most of all.You can't force someone to help, they need to be willing.The best thing I can think of is getting a parent involved someway and having them see the results of there work paying off for the boys, is the best thing.