Moving to BS without Arrow of Light

[gcnphkr 11]

We had a scout like this last year. He came to things as a guest but understood that he could not join until the end of the school year (his birthday was in the Summer). He understood that things like the participation requirements would not start until then, nor would he be tested on anything. He didn't care, he just wanted to be able to have fun with his friends.

[Eagle92 110]

MN,

MY BAD! ( caps for emphasis, not shoutinG) At one time the rule WAS 10.5, COMPLETED 5THGRADE and have AOL.... Then it dropped to 10.5 and the AOL, or completed 5th grade or 11.

 

But you are right the new requirements don';t have the 10.5 anymore.

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

10.5 is not mentioned specifically, but generally speaking, joining younger than 10.5 can only be accomplished before if a very specific set of circumstances occur and the depending upon the Webelos scout's actual birthday.

 

Boy Scout joining requirement 1 reads:

1) Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

 

 

So, without completing the Arrow of Light, a boy must be 11 or completed the 5th grade to join a troop. A Webelos may crossover (join a Boy Scout troop). So the question is, what is the age requirement for completing the Arrow of Light?

 

Arrow of Light, requirement 1 reads:

1)Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

 

 

If the Webelos scout completes the 4th grade before his 10th birthday, and he spends an active 6 months over the summer with the den and finishes the AOL requiremnts, it is possible to join before turning 10.5. Generally speaking, most Webelos will be at least 10.5 before they join, but there will be a few exceptions. Remember, too that the Webelos program is intended to run for 18 months. However, last year, we had a small den (of 3) cross over to a troop in Novmember. Two had earned their AOL, but all three were 11 (the non-AOL scout dropped before summer camp, I heard). The other den, mentioned in my pervious post, had one 11 year old who wanted to finish his AOL, and did. His choice.

 

I feel that finishing the Arror of Light, when done as intended, greatly increases a scout's chance success in a troop. But that is just an opinion, based on my experience and not a proven fact.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[Basementdweller 608]

Here is a link to national about joining boy scouts it clearly says at least 10 years old with the arrow of light.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/joining.aspx

 

But the soonest you can earn the arrow of light is 10.5

 

I cannot find a link on national

[Eagle92 110]

Base,

a 10y.o.can also join IF they completed 5th grade even without the AOL.

 

Boy Scout Joining Requirements

 

1. Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/joining.aspx

 

As far as AOL goes

 

Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

 

So if someone has a late birthday, say Sept. and they finish 4th at 9y.o. They can move up to BS December 1 at 10 years, 3 months. OR as I see in a situation with one set of twinsin my TC den in a few years 10 years, 1 month, a dew days (their birthday is late OCT. and they JUST made it into school unde the old admission dates).

[cdroberts94 10]

Thanks for all the advice. We have a committee meeting this evening and we will need to discuss this and it will be good to go in with some possible solutions.

 

Carole

[83_Eagle_T148 10]

Nolesrule is quite correct regarding:

 

"I think BSA may need to tweak the requirement wording as I doubt that's the true intent."

 

That is most certainly their true intent.

 

The whole point of Arrow of Light is to prepare Cub Scouts to enter the realm of Boy Scouts. Without having earned AOL, the grade/age requirements are in place for a reason.

 

Or, to put it another way, earning Arrow of Light creates an exception to the Boy Scout age/grade joining requirements that allows a boy to join earlier than usual.

 

 

[Snow_White 10]

Thanks to those who cleared up the "10.5" confusion.

 

While I understand MNBob's concern for the Webelos in the 5th grade but not yet 11 who may get left behind when their friends cross over, I have to agree that there is already an exception in place for them - and that exception is to earn the Arrow of Light. The issues that Bob listed above are quite valid - but we as Pack leaders need to make sure that the families understand how this works early in their 5th grade year so that there are no surprises.

 

Yes, this is difficult when they join as new Webs in 5th grade (working with a couple of these in our pack right now). Yes, it helps if the SM/troop allows them to participate in troop activities as a "visitor" until they can officially join. But I don't think that this constitutes a gap in the joining requirements that needs to be fixed.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver 10]

Perhaps the simplest way to correct the problem is to have the Webelos II den leaders understand that if all of the boys haven't bridged, their job isn't complete. If they buy in to this at the beginning of the year, the problem disappears.

 

And yes, I understand that most of them are W2DL because their son is in the den. But if we say that we are in it for the boys, that removes that argument.

[Oak Tree 15]

have the Webelos II den leaders understand that if all of the boys haven't bridged, their job isn't complete.

 

Got to say, this would just not be practical in my experience. Have a den of one that continues to meet after the rest of the den has crossed over?

 

But if we say that we are in it for the boys, that removes that argument.

 

Most of our pack's den leaders say they are a den leader so that their son and the other boys will have a good den leader. I don't think they would say that they are in it just to help other boys. I'm confident, at any rate, that it would not remove the argument.

 

Not letting the Scout cross over to me seems like a pretty good way to encourage them to drop out. "Sorry, you can't do Scouts equally with your friends for the next three months. We really want you to stay in Scouting, though."

 

Since the Scout didn't earn Arrow of Light, he may be pre-destined to drop out anyway, but I don't want to accelerate that process if I don't have to.

[hendrickms24 20]

"And yes, I understand that most of them are W2DL because their son is in the den. But if we say that we are in it for the boys, that removes that argument."

 

 

Sorry but in my option that complete Bullhockie! I was a Den Leader for five years and was down right tired and burned out. I kept telling the boys and the parents that they needed to get X, Y and Z done so the boys could earn the AOL. Well they still would not get it done no matter how many times I told them. So who fault is it that Johnny was not going to bridge over with their friends? ME? I don't think so but one thing for sure I was not going to just hand them the badge so their feeling would not get hurt. Boys in general need to learn that life is not easy and if they want something they have to work for it. Cub Scouts is just as much a family program as a Den one so don't throw the blame just at the DLs. I told them that the last Den meeting was X date and everything needed to be done by then. Heck the boys had 18 months to do all the requirements by time the last den meeting took place. So should I have stay for another 6 month for the boys that could not take the time on their own to do the rest of the requirements? Sorry but no way!

 

 

"Not letting the Scout cross over to me seems like a pretty good way to encourage them to drop out. "Sorry, you can't do Scouts equally with your friends for the next three months. We really want you to stay in Scouting, though."

 

Yet again bending the rules so John will not drop out is just as silly! Should Eagle be give to John when all his friends earn it to insure that he will not drop out at that point too?

 

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

I don't think that it is so far fetched an idea. 2 years ago, I stepped down as Cubmaster (I had recruited and trained my replacement) to take over a den which, inspite of good scouts suffered from having a qualified trained and hardworking Den Leaders quit after each the Tiger, Wolf and Bear years. My wife was the DL for my son's Webelos den, but I stepped into a den the year behind, because these scouts deserved a good leader and I committed to seeing them all to crossover. Only 1 of the boys returned that year, but we recruited in the fall and by the following year we had built up to 6 webelos, all of whom crossed to Boy Scouts a week ago (Dragons! Hear us Roar!).

 

I certainly would have stayed longer if needed were not all of these scouts able to cross last week but that was not necessary, as we worked the program hard for the scouts who joined this school year and these scouts did a great job. Sometimes all you have to do is ask, and the parents will work with you.

[MNBob 10]

Yet again bending the rules so John will not drop out is just as silly! Should Eagle be give to John when all his friends earn it to insure that he will not drop out at that point too?I don't think that's what Oak Tree was trying to imply (and it's not what I'm arguing). Earning the Arrow of Light is its own award and accomplishment. Cross Over is a separate ceremony. I understand the 11 years old rule for non Scouts to join Boy Scouts. But for boys who have participated in Cub Scouts as second year Webelos, I just think it's a silly technicality that only boys who turn 11 in the spring or summer will not be able Croos over with the rest of their den if they have not earned the Arrow of Light. The boy is not being awarded with anything. Aren't Webelos leaders supposed to encourage their Scouts to cross over. Doesn't BSA want people to join? Facing the possibility of losing a boy because of a technicality like this rule is, to be blunt, stupid.

 

I certainly would have stayed longer if needed were not all of these scouts able to cross last week but that was not necessary, as we worked the program hard for the scouts who joined this school year and these scouts did a great job. Sometimes all you have to do is ask, and the parents will work with you.I commend you for your volunteerism. But I assume you know that your response is not typical. It's hard to find leaders from existing parents let alone someone who isn't a parent. I agree that it doesn't hurt to ask but I think your experience would be in the minority of most experiences.

[IM_Kathy 32]

I find this very interesting... let's change the discussion away from scouts to let's say "driving"

 

here a kid can get a learner's permit when they are 14 which means they can drive when they have an adult in the front passenger seat. The kid then takes driver's ed and when that's passed can get their licence at 16. If they do not take driver's ed then they can't get it until they are 18...

 

so simply change that back to scouts........

 

a boy get's his permit by being a webelos, he learns from an adult and prepares for boy scouts... he then takes driver's ed by working on and passing his AOL... when he completes that he then becomes a boy scout.

 

I'm sorry, I don't want a 16 year old kid out driving around without ever taking a class on how to drive! As a scout leader I know that a boy who has earned his AOL is more prepared for what will take place on our campouts then a boy that hasn't.

[MNBob 10]

Joining Boy Scouts is equivalent to obtaining your driving license? Poor analogy IMO.

 

Then change the rule a different way. Either a boy needs to be at least 10 and earned his arrow of light or he needs to have completed the 5th grade. Again, we should be encouraging not discoursing boys to join Boy Scouts. I don't see why some of you are unable to see why there might be an issue if a den of Scouts is not able to cross over and join together. Fortunately my 5th grade son who won't be 11 until August has earned his AoL so it's not an issue. Since it's not my problem I'll stop worrying about it. But for those who do run into this rule I guess the majority opinion is "Too bad, that's the rule and if you don't like it don't join. We don't need you."(This message has been edited by MNBob)