Scouts Fighting

[triangle71 10]

So much for cheerful and friendly.

A minor point concerning other posts on this topic, but does anyone use Spellcheck?

[Mafaking 10]

Well the PLC met last night to review the incident.

 

The PLC less those involved included four scouts; 3-8th graders and one 9th grader.

 

The four scouts and I went to a some what isolated area and called the scouts involved over one by one. The scouts and I asked questions. A few on the PLC had some very intriguing insight on what happened and asked for a demonstration on what occurred. The scouts demonstrated high level understanding of motives and characteristics traits.

 

The principle aggressor was interviewed first then the other who were involved or present.

 

After all were interviewed we held a closed discussion. The scouts did most of the talking as we reviewed the most plausible scenario. Then I asked the open question, What do we want to do as punishment? Several ideas went back and forth and in the end they decided the following:

 

The scouts involved will be assigned to work together as a team at the next service project.

The principle aggressor will write a 500 word paper and present it to the troop on; How working together as a cooperative team can add to an effective troop and patrol development.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

[Engineer61 19]

Really?

 

Commit an assault and the punishment is:

 

a 500 word essay, and you force the kid who was assaulted to be exposed to his attacker again?

 

Huh?

[mds3d 90]

I think the punishment is appropriate. It expresses disapproval and deals out consequenses without really being corporal punishment. It is also a little more than a slap on the wrist.

 

When dealing with this kind of situation, everyone needs to remember a couple of things.

 

Are the scouts sorry?

Do they understand what they did was unacceptable?

Do they understand why it was unacceptable?

Does the punishment teach them anything?

You CANNOT use corporal punishment. You SHOULD NOT use anything that resembles corporal punishment. Work (service, dish washing, etc.) is not necessarily corporal punishment, but it may be seen by some parents as such.

Most importantly: The problem scouts may be the ones that need scouting the most.

 

Also, If you as a leader have the appropriate relationship with the scout, mere expression of disapproval is sometimes enough.

[evmori 11]

I'm with Engineer61. While this is more than a slap on the wrist, it isn't much more.

 

No one has advocated corporeal punishment. I have advocated suspension, which is something that I feel should still happen.

 

You SHOULD NOT use anything that resembles corporal punishment. Work (service, dish washing, etc.) is not necessarily corporal punishment, but it may be seen by some parents as such.

 

Politically correct attitudes like this never solve anything. Having someone put on latrine duty or perform a service project or washing dishes is by no means corporeal punishment and if a parent sees it as that then this is probably a contributing factor as to why their little angel is the one in trouble.

 

The "punishment" does not fit the "crime" in this instance.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets 10]

Did the punishment fit the crime, was it a sufficient penalty? You may not think so but I don't think that's really relevent here. Mafaking did not decide on this punishment, it was meted out by the PLC. Their opinion is what counts and I don't think it should be our business to second-guess them.

 

If you're serious about having a boy-led program, then you need to support the PLC's decisions unless they clearly violate BSA policy, and I don't see that being the case here.

 

Kudos to Mafaking for not hijacking the process, and to the PLC for thoughtfully addressing the situation.

 

Regards,

DWS

[Engineer61 19]

My point is that this case, the determination should not have been made by the PLC to begin with.

 

It should have been done by the SM's who are in charge of the SAFETY of the boys.

 

Here's the takeaways:

 

1) The boy who attacked learned that outrageous behavior yields no significant penalty.

 

2) The boy who was attacked learned that he has no real protection from the adults in charge when Scouting.

 

3) The PLC learned that it's okay to protect "one of your own".

 

Three strikes!

 

P.S. Had I been the attacked boys parent, I would have demanded the other Scout's expulsion from the troop...I hope that parent takes the lesson and leaves the troop before he really gets hurt.

 

It's not the place of boy's to make these kinds of decisions.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

[Mafaking 10]

 

Engineer61

 

You think the SM's or a group of Committee members would have been harsher?

 

[Twocubdad 665]

I would hope so. The consequences do seem to be a bit light to me.

 

I tend to agree with Eamonn on this. While I'll agree with the analogy of the youth leaders being the cop on the corner, the adults need to be the ones dealing with the ultimate consequences for bad behavior. I don't get from the program materials where the PLC is trained or expected to deal with this.

 

On the ground, I want my youth leaders to have the sense, maturity and training to recognize and stop behavioral problem as they occur and to recognize when they are over their heads and need adult help. Alone, that would be a huge accomplishment.

[evmori 11]

I'm with Engineer61 and TwoCubDad on this. The boys dealt with this the way they would like adults to deal with it and the result is less than adequate. The adults should be handling discipline and in fact this is stated in BSA literature.

[acco40 95]

Why do our court systems and now it seems folks in scouting want to equate service to others as punishment?

 

You committed a crime? I sentence you to 500 hours of community service!

 

And then we wonder why we have a difficult time teaching the boys (and many parents) that community service is a good thing.

[Eamonn 61]

I can't but help feel that this jury gave the verdict that they thought would sit well with the adults. (Maybe the adults might have used their input?)

 

I'm also left asking what would have happened if the verdict had been to remove the Lad from the Troop?

I'm sorry, while I'm 101% for a youth led unit, having Scouts sit in judgment and pass sentence on other Scouts is not the way things should be done.

Ea.

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

 

 

So while a 500 word paper may be an effective idea to your average kid.... will this guy get it? Will he truely understand what he is doing when writing te paper?

 

By putting him back with tyhe other two.. are you sur4e he isn't getting the message that it was just no big deal?

 

I do not mean you should call the police, but I think something stronger needs to happen.

And while I think that the peer group trial and punishment does teach a valueable lesson, it also teaches that you can dole out punishment with the severity base on wether you like the offender or not. The popular guy gets a slap on the wrist, the least popular guy gets dishes duty and latrine duty for the next 3 campouts?

 

And most importantly, do the other scouts really know how to deal with or understand a special needs scouts quirks and issues? What works for me or you does not necessarily have any afect on a special needs person.

[Engineer61 19]

I seem to recall a set of simple rules to define when a problem is a child's problem (and yes all Scouts are children) and when a problem is a parent's problem....I think it went something like this.

 

 

1. Does the problem involve an injury to other? If so, it is an adult problem.

 

2. Does the problem involve the loss of or damage to property. If so, is it an adult problem.

 

3. Does the child understand the full impact of the problem to himself/herself and other people. If not, it is an adult problem.

 

This was an adult problem, it should have been handled by the adults in the Troop.

[Horizon 97]

It sounds like your Scouts are working to resolve this. Hopefully all will move on.

 

For those of you thinking that the aggressor got off early, do you recall this follow-up post by Mafaking?

 

"A little more to the story.

 

According to the dad, after taking the stick one of the other three boys jumped on his boy. That's how that one boy was tossed from his boys' back and into the thorn bushes."

 

The first physical assault was AGAINST the boy who took the stick. His actions could easily be self-defense. Again - we do not have all of the information.