The Ugly Side of Scouting - Discipline

[CA_Scouter 11]

You got wiggy about SODA?!? Seriously?

 

Now that's truly the ugly side of scouting.

 

Though I guess you are fortunate that's your most serious problem in your troop, I'd opine that this is not the hill you want to die on.

 

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

While he is obviously able to speak for himself, I'll jump in on Stosh's side on that count.

 

I feel certain there's a great deal of history behind the can of soda and ultimately it's a symptom of the Scout's inability and/or unwillingness to follow the expectations of the troop.

 

The one kid we expelled from the troop who I mentioned earlier in the thread was ultimately dismissed for having Honey Buns on a campout. Long story but a classic case of one more straw breaking the camel's back.

[eagle77 60]

I am in the same boat as Stosh. On most trips I am pretty open with what a boy may or may not bring on the trip. But there are always these pesky kids who decide they just need to see how far they can push. Example we were attending summer camp in an area where bears had been very active and on camp property. Strongly told the boys NO FOOD and NO DRINKS (other then water) in tents. Told them this each and every meeting up to camp time. Second night at camp I find two boys (brothers) that decided not to listen to what I told them. Explained to them the reason why and then sent them home. Mom and dad were pretty upset, not with them but with me. Just could not get them to understand the danger that what they had done was to the other boys in the troop, didn't care either. Once we returned home I visited their home and kindly asked them to find another troop, that they were no longer welcome. Notified CC and COR and both agreed with me. Some of these kids parents just don't care what their kids do. Like it or not they will either listen or be asked to walk away. Their choice.

[CA_Scouter 11]

A while back, I posted how I suspended a kid for 6 months for throwing a butter knife at another kid ( and hitting him in the forehead ). Some posters raked me over the coals for that action.

 

I guess honey buns and sodas rank higher. Who'da though?

 

( just a friendly poke fellas )

 

 

 

 

[Get Outdoors 15]

Junk food at camp? OMG, send those kids home!!!!!!!!! How dare those kids.....well....act like kids!

 

I find it quite depressing how many adult hard-nosed egomaniacs there are in scouting. As long as I serve youth, I vow never to lose site of the fact that these are kids and my actions will have an impact on them for rest of their lives. Just like my scoutmaster impacted my life for the past 30 years. "It's easier to build a boy than repair a man"

 

I lived the nightmare of the illegal substances. Should they stay or kick them out. Call the police? Sleepless nights trying to figure out what is the right thing to do. Fighting with our commitee who wanted to "make examples of them" Parents that threatned to pull their kids out of Troop because they didn't want their kids around "those kinds of kids"

 

I asked myself some questions: Trustworthy?......Loyal?.......Helpful?......... Friendly?......... Curtious?......... Kind?........ I also asked myself what I would do if I caught my son smoking pot. Would I kick him out of my family or would I teach him so he's better prepared when he goes to school, the bus, the playground? As a parent and SM, am I giving "my boys" the tools they need to live in our world as an honorable men?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

I realize this is a long and winding thread and since it isn't the main point of the thread, the full story of the boy we dismised from the troop isn't presented in one post from start to finish. But before you start calling others' character into question perhaps you should dismount your high horse and re-read the facts.

 

The fact is, I spent a year fighting the parents and committee member who wanted to dismiss the Scout after the first incidence. During that year the troop did work with him to teach him how to behave safely and responsibly. Mutiple conferences with his parents. He was given mutiple opportunities to change his behavior. HE CHOSE NOT TO DO SO.

 

That after 18 months of serious behavior problems which endangered him and other Scouts, that he was ultimately dismissed for something trivial is entirely incidental.

[eagle77 60]

Well Get Outdoors my scouts would be the last to tell you that I am some kind of egomaniac. Because of limited time and space I only keyed on the major issue that broke things wide open. First off both of these boys came from a family of little or no diciplin. Their father was an ASM in the troop. We had to constantly walk on egg shells when either of his sons stepped out of line, because anytime anyone PL, SPL,or adult leader said anything about what they were doing wrong he would jump on them with all his might. We had to go through many meetings and discussions to even get this guy to understand the situation. I had 32 boys in the site that year at camp, 30 of them listened to what I and the staff said about the food and certain smellys in the tents. They still decided that what we said was not important. Let me put this to you, If your son was sharing a tent with one of these boys and followed the rules but was mauled or attacked by a bear that smelled his tentmates food, would you simply except the fact that it was just kids being kids? The final decision to send these brothers home came from the SPL, who was more afraid of retaliation from the boys parents then he was of the boys themselves. Because as far as things went their kids did no wrong, it was everyone else who was wrong.

[Stosh 3452]

While having a soda in a tent seems trivial to some, one has, as others have pointed out, a need to look further down the road than just today. A soda or food in a tent will draw animals. While we are not in heavy bear country, a mouse can go through the side of a nylon tent like a hot knife through butter. This long-range thinking is what leadership is all about. What one does today has consequences well into the future. While smoking pot may be illegal and stupid on a camp out, it is not as dangerous as leaving a chocolate candy wrapper or spilling a soda in a tent that will leave odors for the next trips and would cause more harm for any boy sleeping in it while in bear country.

 

Until a boy realizes the potential of his decisions, he will opt for the instant gratification of the moment. Distinguishing between these two is an opportunity for mentoring leadership to explain this and assist the boys in their leadership development rather than just turning over the discipline to others to administer without any learning opportunities along the way.

 

Drinking a soda in a tent is not going to draw in the police, but what kind of discipline and forethought went into the boys that find it acceptable to throw butter knives at each other or smoke pot on an outing? Surely a minor infraction with a teaching/counseling moment on a lessor issue may have avoided the greater problem later on.

 

As a CampMaster one summer I had to disarm two brothers going at each other with sheath knives in a standard sized wall tent. Not my cup of tea, but what could the SM done to educate these boys long before the incident occurred? By the time the situation degraded down to a knife fight, surely there were signs and symptoms showing long before the incident.

 

Soda and Honey Buns in the tent? Either it's a learning opportunity or it's an opportunity for the SM to blow it off as "boys will be boys". If I'm responsible for leadership development, maybe a "big stink" about Honey Buns may head off a more serious infraction later on.

 

Boys will always test the boundaries. Where do we as leaders begin to push back? Minor issues that we handle right away or major issues and then turn it over others to deal with when we have neglected our responsibility?

 

Boys will be boys, but we are not responsible for perpetuating boys, we are to assist them into mature manhood and appropriate choices in their lives.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad 2777]

>>Boys will be boys, but we are not responsible for perpetuating boys, we are to assist them into mature manhood and appropriate choices in their lives.

[Stosh 3452]

Of course there are two "classes" in scouting. You have boys/scouts that are participants in the program and then there are the adults/scouters that administer the program. Just because there are immature adults out there doesn't make the distinction any less evident.

 

I know of boys that are more mature than some adults I've met, but the name of the game for me is to get the boys ready for adulthood when they turn 18 and move on in their scouting career, or any other career for that matter.

 

The distinction offered up by our society is also different and reflects the program that exists within this society, yet I don't always adhere to the appropriate social norms. For example, all my "boys" are referred to by their title with Mr. preface to it. They don't get that level of recognition from society, but they do from me in my programs. I don't treat them any different from the adults in the program, except the adults are more stricted than what the boys can do.

 

I had a scout totally organize our summer camp experience this past summer. He was 15 years old doing what normally is done by an ASM in most other troops. He found a camp that met the troop needs, contacted them, registered the boys, signed them up for MB's and collected the $$'s to go.

 

So, did I treat this scout as a presumed second-class citizen in the troop? I doubt it. Did I put undue pressure on him to do more than what most scouts are expected to do? Yep, and I'll do it again.

 

My Venturing Crew is even more aligned to an even playing field. This past weekend we did a reenactment. My other advisor wanted to keep the Crew segregated from the other adults. When it came time to start the activity the command was given (by ME as Captain), "Fall in, by height" I have some short and tall scouts, but they were all treated the same. I didn't say fall in by age, or fall in by crew here and everyone else there.

 

This all occurs because I move boys to men in the process of developing the program. Some move quickly through the stages, others take more time, but the process is the same for all.

 

Just about every parent has at one time or another thanked me for not singling their child out and treating them as such. I don't care if the reenactor is 14 or 40. When they stand there, fully trained with a weapon in their hand loaded with blackpowder, there is no age distinction, and my boys appreciate it and rise to the occasion.

 

I don't coddle the boys either just because they are "boys". We had an Iron Chef cook-off this past weekend during our reeactment and the Crew wanted to participate. I said yes, knowing full well the first place prize was a bottle of whiskey. They skinned their squirrel, peeled their potatoes, roased their squash and did every thing that was expected of them. Had they won, we would have addressed the problem at that point, but they didn't, BUT they got their chance along with everyone else at the activity. It would have been a lot easier to just say no, they can't because the prise is alcohol.

 

So, I stand by my statement. When these 11 year-olds cross over into my troop, they are raw, green, and immature. The faster I can change that, the stronger a boy-led program is going to be.

 

As I have said on this forum, I have problems of discipline occasionally and some of the worst have been drinking/eating in tents and such infractions that most would say they are "minor".

 

I expect all my scouts to be "mature adults". If they are just starting out as a Webelos cross-over scout, I still expect it. The surprising thing is that in most cases, I get it. Scouts will rise to the level of expection if given the chance. If they screw up and one treats them like a kid, they will react in kind.

 

I do not distinguish any difference between Scout and Scouter except those demanded by BSA. And I attribute my record on very little need for discipline on this lack of distinction.

 

Stosh

[Stosh 3452]

Just when one think's it's okay to go into the water... WHAM!

 

My boys just set a new record for stupid.

 

Older patrol, PL only has his EBOR to finish up on get his Eagle and quit. He's 16 and expressed this to me as his plan. The boys in his patrol are all aspiring to be leaders but haven't a clue. They have all finished TLT.

 

At last weekend's outing they skipped breakfast, packed their tents away wet and called a parent (on a cell phone that was not allowed) that came out and picked them up. All because the younger patrol was taking too much time with a Dutch oven breakfast and waiting for the tents to dry out before packing. The NSP PL is 17 and is finishing up his EP and will Eagle and age out this January.

 

The last thing I saw was a pack line of gear and tents thrown in a pile. I went to the bathroom to clean up for breakfast and when I returned they are gone. The other adult didn't see them leave either. My NSP PL "thinks" they have may gone home. 30 minutes later the NSP is packed up (dry) and heading out. I looked for them, but they were gone before I was able to locate them. I still don't know which parent picked them up, but I know it wasn't my ASM because I promised him I'd get his two boys home because he had a conflict on Sunday a.m. and couldn't do it himself.

 

None of the boys from that patrol that attended the campout came to the troop meeting on Monday. (At least in that respect they were pretty smart.)

 

I tried to count up the number of "rules" that were broken and am still counting.

 

So far I've addressed this issue with the PL's father just to get him up to speed on the facts of the issue (previous SM and Eagle Scout himself, now my ASM). He was unaware of what his boys had done (PL and a patrol member were both his sons). He was as surprised as I was that his boys would have done this.

 

Should be interesting the next couple of months.

 

Stosh