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FYI, and this is coming from someone who knows Hebrew, the translation is "Do not murder." There are different words for murder and kill in Hebrew and they have different connotations, just like in English.


As for the context of the Torah laws, there are enough volumes about what they mean and how they are applied in Judaism to fill a library.


How they apply to non-Jews can be explained in two words.


They don't.


Stepping back out of this conversation.

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I see no reason that 37 ASM and teacher seem odd.


If I had a son when I was 22 after leaving college that would put him at 15 right now. Check for scouting age.


Our troop is a small one, so basically any parent that submits a parent application gets ASM if he wants. Check for that two.


Teacher, what seems odd about that? If I remember correctly (which I do) my first post on this thread was talking about a teachers' response. I either am obsessed with teachers by starting out like that, BEFORE I started this debate with you, or I know very many, which would strengthen the idea that I am one.


Again, instead of responding to my argumentative logic, you resort to personal attacks again. If you can't argue the logic, please don't start name calling and attacking my age. If you really thought I was a high school student, starting a name calling war with me wouldn't be a very good idea. Would you want to freely admit that a high school student defeated your view on morality and you had to resort to name calling? If so, by all means continue to call me one. I, for one, would take a path of humility and would rather admit to being bested by a 37 year old philosophy teacher than a 15 year old wannabe debater.


And I see the post about assuming I am a high-school student due to me talking about a high school debate topic. Of course, I must say I enjoy debate, (which is one of the reason I coach it) and sometimes debate with my students and help them with case points etc.


Again, I am either really obsessed with teachers and school as a student, or I actually work there. You get to decide. iz nt lk i b tpn lk i b n d 9 grd.(This message has been edited by xlpanel)(This message has been edited by xlpanel)

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For a teacher you play pretty fast and loose in lifting/rewriting someone else's work without attribution. I think that by most academic standards what you did to/with the work of Martin Niemoller would be considered plagiarism. The original was about the holocaust and your use trivializes the poem and its subject. That offends me.




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Its just like the example before about the brownies that was lifted from somewhere with no author claim. He did admit he couldn't find an author, maybe I should have put that on their as well. Also, there is controversy about whether the Niemoller guy even wrote the poem. Niemoller even said himself that he was not certain he said that.




And if that offends you, please do not frequent online message board where dissenting opinions are presented. Or else install a filtering software that blocks everything that does not conform to your morality standard. That will save you from being offended in the future.


Just a side comment, this is starting to look like 2 against the mob.


Lastly, one more anecdote.


Willie has some weird political ideas. He believes in no taxes at all, but still likes to drive on public roads. He plans to send a tea bag in an envelope to his representatives to 'scare' them from giving out taxes. He somehow thinks this will work and roads will still be built and maintained.


Johnnie has some views. He believes all porn should be legal for any age, as censoring the truth does not change anything. Larry does not like this and plans to 'scare' johnny by telling him he will go to hell when he dies. Johnny does not believe in hell, just as larry does not believe in under 18 possession so he ignores him, and scare tactics fail. Larry is then so distressed that Johnny does not have the right morals he worries night and day for johnny's soul. Johnny starts viewing porn less and less when he is 17, and finaly barely does it at all. Larry continues to worry every night and day, stressing out repeatedly. As in the monks' example, Johnny has set the porn down along time ago, while Larry thinks about it every day. (Sorry for not citing correctly).(This message has been edited by xlpanel)

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Here's my take from an SPL's standpoint:


Porn is not ok. Not at a meeting, not at an outing, not ok period. If I was to find porn on one of my Scouts, obviously I would take it and gice it to the SM, but I would rather talk to the Scout first before the Scoutmaster talks to him. It's easier to counsel a boy from another boy than an adult where he's just too scared. First, I'd ask why he brought it. Never in Scouts, but I've seen a few boys who have shown porn to friends because they have been labeled or mocked as "gay" and they think that by doing this, it would stop the teasing or the rumors. I would then ask how he got it, if it was from another Scout, etc. If he has an older brother and thought that maybe since his brother had it, it was ok, that would change things. (My Troop has many young boys and few older boys). It shouldn't be about punishment, but a learning experience. Maybe he just doesn't know it's wrong, but you can't automatically assume the worst intent. Explain to him the issues, both morally and legally with it, and why it was a bad choice. Chances are, he just made a bad descision as a horny teen boy. Chances are key. The SM should take it, throw it out or delete it, counsel him, and let it go the first time. Don't tell his parents, but let him know that if he ever does it again, or that if there are suspiscions or reports, he will be punished severly, but give the kid a chance. Don't ruin his life cause of it. Just make him understand its wrong and let it go unless it happens again. He's probably so humiliated he got caught he'll never do it again anyway.

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I wouldn't like kids under 13 to look at porn, but I wouldn't punish them or make their parents drive 500 miles to pick them up. I would ask the younger kids to please do it on their own time. I wouldn't tell their parents. I wouldn't take it from them. Just ask them to use discretion so those who didn't want to see it wouldn't.


Kids older than 14 I wouldn't care at all. If Good Morning America is to believed (which it isn't) they have already done much worse.


Then you are condoning breaking the law. I sure hope you are not a registered leader.



I am sure trolls do not make worthwhile philosophical posts.


Trolls post all kinds of stuff. And worthwhile is sometimes only the posters feeling.


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I agree with xPanel that our forefathers brought us to this land knowing (to one degree or another) that they were setting aside certain standards of morality (e.g., "the King laws are God's", or maybe even earlier "the gods wouldn't want us to cross this land bridge"). So, we are subjected to a little moral relativism in the hope that we won't wind up fighting anyone else's holy war but our own.


BUT that does not mean we do not set up a moral ideal for our children! Even the Christians listen to what the rabbi and immam says, and every now and then we try to learn something. Over our country's history, we've learned: Free the slaves. Don't drink. Don't smoke. Burkas are OK but not required (still working on that one). And, out of respect for marriage, DON'T GAWK AT SOMEONE ELSE's SPOUSE!!!!


While you're with us as a boy scout, to help you along: we'll ban some of this stuff, don't bring it to camp (in any form). If you do, we'll confiscate it without endagering your safety. If you insist on bringing contraban (be it out of a sense of moral indignation or addiction) we'll show you the door. I'm sure your parents can find you an organization that suits your high-minded philosophy of moral relativism.


When you are a venturer, you can hold an ethical contraversy over this stuff.


When you are an adult (and hopefully a little less impulsive), we'll let you have a private life. But, please while you're out with our boys, conform.


This isn't merely out of respect for our charter organizations (some of whom are pretty insistant about moral ideals), it's because we all have percieved that the odds are stacked against someone who crosses the line becoming a very compassionate and caring adult.


Oh, and asking the parent to drive 500 miles? That really depends on the situation (first offense vs. repeat, threat to others etc...). That's why we SM's and Advisors have committee's and district execs.

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Many thanks to those that answered my questions. I do wish that those that want to hijack the thread would simply do a spin-off where there could be more direct responses instead of cluttering up the thread.


Thanks again



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Yes, we do have a forum, the Issues & Politics forum, set up specifically to discuss things like God, gays, the Torah, philosophy, ideology, politics, and the like. This forum is set up to discuss the Boy Scout program, yknow stuff like how to react when a kid bring a porno mag on a campout.


Discussions tend to get cluttered up and confused when we change topics in mid stream so to speak. The spin-off button works well, or its easy to start a new topic. Lets feel free to do so, in the appropriate forum, and leave this discussion to the topic for which it was opened.


Frank the moderator

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When we were on a campout back in the 1990's, one of the scouts in my troop brought out a porno book. One of the leaders confiscated it and used a black Elmarko marker to "Censor" it. He complained that we ruined his personal property. We then told him to complain to his parents and see where it would get him. So we did not have any more problems like this happen again. The troop leadership did not make a big deal over it. Was it wrong? Yes. Did it happen again? No? So back to a scout is "Clean". RD

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I'm disgusted and dismayed by the attitude of some (whom I'm supposing are in leadership) that "everyone does it." That's false. Every man does NOT look at pornography. I would not let my son sit under the authority of someone with that attitude.

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" I would not let my son sit under the authority of someone with that attitude."

Hi, JJJJ (Boy that's a lot of J's)

Welcome to the forum.

I would hope that the adults in any youth program you allow your son to join would do their best to respect what you want for your son.

I know for my part I do try.

This doesn't mean that I have never messed up.

Years back I was the leader of a very diverse Troop.

The Patrols did try to make the menus they put together work for the Scouts in the Patrols avoiding pork, which some of the Jewish Scouts didn't eat and the Muslim Scouts didn't eat.

I paid a surprise visit early one morning to a Patrol that was Patrol Camping and seen one of our Muslim Scouts enjoying a bacon sandwich. When I asked a few questions about this I heard from the Patrol "He always does that".

I talked with the Scout and explained that he was not living up to the expectations of his religion or the expectations of his parents.

I did feel maybe a little bit responsible for maybe not doing more to ensure that we as a Troop were maybe doing more.

But I did feel and still feel that the Scout himself needed to take most of the blame for not doing what he knew he should or shouldn't have been doing.

As Scout leaders our job is to provide a program for the Scouts we serve.

We are not policemen, while we try to ensure that the Scouts are free from harm (Not just physical harm.) There does remain some element of risk.

Parents do need to know the people who are in charge of their kids and at times do need to hold these people accountable for what they do and what they fail to do.

I have seen soccer coaches come down really hard on players who have failed to play up to the expectations of the coach.

I coached soccer and when I seen this I knew that this was just not my style.

I've also seen coaches cuss out players for playing badly. When I seen this, I did everything I could to have them removed from coaching young players.

This to my way of thinking was and is just wrong!

Strange thing was when I tried to have them removed, I was seen as the bad guy. Many of the parents seemed to think that this was OK or in some way acceptable.

There is a line.

Sad thing is that not everyone has it at the same place.



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Hi J4.


You stated that every man does not look at pornography. You are very adamant in your denial of that fact. Have YOU ever looked at it?



I mean, you can't deny the facts of life, no matter how hard you try. Would you want your son to be under the leadership of an idiot that denies facts and statistical evidence?



We do not need moral crusaders going on a morality war. I mean, sure, you can ask the kid to stop SHOWING THE OTHER KIDS but that is all. You do not get to tell him that is is wrong or unsafe (unless he is prone to papercuts).

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