Scouts rescued from James River....

[le Voyageur 72]

 

What were these unit leaders thinking...

 

http://www.newsadvance.com/lna/news/local/article/breaking_news_boy_scouts_rescued_from_james_river/16014/

[Hal_Crawford 15]

Wow! Sounds like these guys need a refresher course in Safety Afloat and Weather Hazards... punctuated with beatings so that it sinks in.

[Nike 94]

These guys were from Hampton!! Let's hope they don't decide to go sailing in the Bay.

[le Voyageur 72]

Watching the late news this pm on this event, I'm guessing their rescue cost the State 30 to 40 k, and endangered several swift water rescue teams, and an air crew. Luckly no lives were lost, and none of the Scouters will be facing fines for their poor judgement.

 

All of this could of been avoided had someone in that Unit had made a few phone calls to any of the local liveries, Sheriff departments, or checked the internet for water conditions such as this site...

 

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/va/nwis/rt

 

The James river is a great paddling river, but at flood stage (currently running 8 ft over normal) this river with it huge volume spews running strainers, and sinkers.

 

I've a feeling that the COR will be holding a very serious talk with the Committee, and the SM on this matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SMT224 10]

Well, yes, we can sit back here and shake our heads and say "What the heck we they thinking, doing something crazy like that?"

 

But who among us here hasn't been in some kind of a situation where we had to decide - usually very quickly - do we stay or do we go? Do we cancel the trip, or do we head out? After a few times of canceling a trip and then the sun comes out and you feel like a wimp, you start pushing the envelope a bit harder. And you discover that you really can set up camp in the dark, in the rain, in the wind, on a hill side, and the Scouts like the adventure, and everything comes out fine.

 

From the news reports it sounds like this was a pretty clear... a "cancel the trip and go home" should have conclusion to that decision making process, but we don't know what they were thinking. Maybe the leaders didn't want to seem like quitters in front of their Scouts. Maybe they had pushed the envelope a time before and figured they'd be ok this time. Maybe this trip had been scheduled since last September, and they had been working towards it for weeks, and just could not let go.

 

A few years ago our Troop was camping on the Atlantic coast, and a tropical storm was moving north. We all watched the weather until the very last moment, and when it looked like the storm was moving out to sea, we decided that a little rain wasn't going to stop us, as we did this trip every year, and we were going. Well, the storm did not move out to sea, and while no one was hurt, we were completely and totally drenched by huge quantities of horizontal rain. Tents were fill of water, and absolutely everything was soaked. We managed to get a breakfast cooked on Saturday morning, then dumped everything in the trailer and came home to spend the next week sorting and drying our gear. While we were back at the church parking lot waiting for parents, digging through sopping gear, a mom came up to us and furiously demanded to know, "What were you thinking?"

 

 

[le Voyageur 72]

SMT224

 

My observations, and comments are based on over 30 years of experience of river running, and as a professional guide. Having led treks on the James, and knowing the nature of that river at different times of the year, my decision to cancell would of been swift, and not debateable.

 

Instead, we would of headed a very short distance south to run Plan B on the Blackwater,or Nottoway.

[kenk 11]

Well, I can honestly say that I was in the same position just last weekend.

 

My son's troop has been training and prepping all spring for a canoe trip down the Rock River (Illinois) last Saturday. They had Safety Afloat training for the entire troop, swimming tests for those who hadn't gone to summer camp, and last month camped locally for a full day of in-water canoeing training, starting with paddles on the shore and then into the canoes for instruction. A lot of effort invested in last weekend's trip.

 

We were supposed to head out on Friday night, setup camp, have the river trip on Saturday, return to camp for dinner, and then head back home on Sunday.

 

Friday morning the weather forecast called for severe thunderstorms and high winds Friday night starting around 7PM and going through midnight. The Scoutmaster and I (SM couldn't attend the trip - I'm an ASM) made the decision to postpone departure until early Saturday morning.

 

We left at 6AM Saturday morning and arrived at 8:30AM. We were going to rent canoes from the local Boy Scout camp that we were staying at. When we checked in the camp master said the river was too high for canoeing and that he strongly recommended we not try to canoe the river. I asked if the local outfitters had the same recommendations - he said yes - that there wasn't anyone on the river.

 

I tried to assemble the adult leaders (three other adult leaders and two fathers) and the SPL and ASPL to discuss the matter. I told them what the camp master had said. Several of the leaders said that the river was only 4 feet over normal (flood stage = 9 feet) and that it should be OK. I told them that now that we've been warned not to canoe we were under a high liability risk situation if we went ahead and something happened. One of the other adult leaders agreed, one said he was still disappointed, and the other still wanted to go. I finally pushed the decision to cancel the canoe trip and let the Scouts spend the day exploring the Scout camp area (we'd never been there before). They setup camp, went out exploring (using buddy system) and had a great weekend. Upon returning from seeing the river (from the camp) several adults and Scouts said that it looked OK and that we should have gone. The adult leader who was disappointed did point out that they didn't see any boats on the river the whole time they were on the shore.

 

At last Sunday night's troop meeting - during a leader's meting - we got scolded by an adult leader for postponing the departure. He felt we would have survived the storms and done what we needed to do. I also got scolded by the same adult leader saying that thought we should have gone canoeing. He felt that the SPL & ASPL shouldn't have been involved in the decision, and that without risk there is no fun. He thinks the camp master just didn't want to pull the canoes from the far corner of the camp. I reminded him that we were talking about other people's kids.

 

My own advice was that we should have spent the money to hire a professional outfitter that knows the river best.

 

Question: When you have four adult leaders (ASM's), two of them want to go and two want to cancel, how would you decide? If somehow the decision was made to go, but you don't think it is safe, what would you do - take your son and stay in camp?

 

[eagle90 125]

To me, the SM (or the ASM in charge in his absence) has the final call. He's the one that is going to take the heat either way, so it should be his call. No one ever said Scouting is a democracy.

[Eagle92 110]

I concur with eagle90, better to error on the side of safety. If folks who know the area better than you don't recommend doing something, follow their advice!

[JoeBob 606]

You made the right decision to cancel.

 

Flat water canoe training on a lake barely prepares you for a river at normal levels. In the river you have to add the skills of reading the current, eddying out, downstream brace (Upstream will flip you...), ferrying, swimming in a current (Toes up - feet downstream) and river rescue.

 

High water levels will kill beginners. The increased volume of water makes the river more violent because it is now pushing through obstacles that it hasn't worn smooth over a few thousand years. The swifter current separates the boats more quickly. Swimmers risk entrapment in strainers (debris fields trapped upstream of trees). In many places you'll be denied access to the shore because the water has submerged the beaches. Ever tried to land a canoe through thick trees while the current pushes you downstream?

 

Now you can go back and have a good whitewater initiation at normal river levels. That will be a much better memory that slogging through dense undergrowth alongside a swollen river in the approaching dark hoping to find a lost scout clinging to a tree.

 

[Beavah 205]

To me, the SM (or the ASM in charge in his absence) has the final call.

 

Nah, yeh never decide by who has what title.

 

Yeh decide by who has what experience.

 

Yeh don't ignore someone with le Voyageur's experience because he's not da SM.

 

There's really only a few variables, eh?

 

Who has da most experience, includin' on that river at or near those water levels (and, if it's early season, who has seen it this spring)? Who knows da skill level and emotional resilience of every scout and adult? Who has da most experience makin' judgment calls, and has demonstrated an ability to say "no" under pressure?

 

Those three, or two, or one person(s), youth or adult, get together and make da call. And while they're at it, teach the rest how to think through such things.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[eagle90 125]

You're right Beavah. I made the assumption that the SM has the most experience, which isn't always the case. Sorry!

 

[sandspur 10]

Yeah Beavah, I agree but in reading your post I assumed that the scouter with more experience was the one counseling caution.

Just for the sake of clarity, how would you make the call if the SM or scouter in charge of the outing felt the river was too high/fast and the situation was more risk than he felt warranted, but another scouter with years of BWCA and river experience felt it was OK? If the SM still cant be convinced?

Under those circumstances, I still would not fault the SM or designee for erring on the side of caution.

Weve all seen Gung Ho Charlie who knows what he can do with his years of experience but not so much what an inexperienced 12 year old can do.

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

How many of us saw the James River? I know I didn't. 20/20 hindsight may lead me to wonder "what were these people thinking" but then again, it's much easier to be a deskchair commentator than the guy on the ground.

 

We don't know why these folks felt they could canoe that river at this time. Given that this occurred on a Sunday, isn't it possible that the unit also spent time on the same river on Saturday without incident and felt it was relatively safe? There was another rescue mentioned meaning there were other canoes on the same river. Could it be possible that the unit saw other folks canoeing down the river and felt it was relatively safe? We also don't know, by this article, who owns these canoes. How many Scout Troops really own their own canoes - enough for a group of 13 people to use. For all we know, the Troop rented the canoes from a livery outfit. If that's the case, is there not some responsibility there too? Most livery outfits won't rent canoes to people if the river conditions are that treacherous. We also don't know how far these folks had traveled - they may have been on the river for a few hours already, without incident - and when the one group of Scouts got stranded on a rock, a decision was made in haste to land in a spot that might have been easily passed by had they not tried to land. We just don't know - so let's not judge these folks. We've all been there, regardless of skill level - caught in a situation we normally wouldn't have been in because of events beyond our control, or making a quick decision because someone else is in a bit of trouble, and just getting ourselves in trouble too.

 

I can, however, say to Kenk, I think you did make the right decision. I've seen the Rock River the past 2 weekends. I wouldn't have gone out on it in a canoe. Heck, I don't know that I would have gone out on it in a power boat. I don't live on the Rock (but pretty close) but I do live between the Des Plaines and the Fox. I know both of these rivers have also been running high and fast, and that the Fox has been closed to boat traffic. It doesn't surprise me that the Rock would be pretty much closed as well. I'm just surprised that the camp master was just strongly suggesting. Seems to me that the camp master should have the ability to say "no, absolutely not" regarding the use of the camps canoes when the river is in this condition - after all, he's the one that lives on the river in the area and should know the conditions better than the Scout Leaders driving down from Rockford or from whereever.

[le Voyageur 72]

You bring up some good points. However, this section of the James is rated for the experience, to expert paddler.

 

Rockbridge Gazette...

 

The Buena Vista Fire Departments swiftwater rescue team, as well as the Buena Vista and Glasgow rescue squads and Glasgow Fire Department, responded to the call. Emergency services personnel from Amherst and Bedford counties also responded. Buena Vista Fire Chief Tommy Keiser said two rescue boats were deployed from the Glasgow boat landing and from Balcony Downs and rescued at least two of the Scouts, who ranged in ages from 10 to 12 years old, from their perch on a rock in the middle of the river.

 

10 and 12 year olds on a section rated for experienced to expert!!!! (I hoping that 10 year old is actually 11, and not a Webelo). Again, adults showing very poor judgement, and not following safety afloat guidelines.

 

Now,if this Crew had saw canoes on the river as suggested, there would of been no way for them to know the skill level of those paddlers, or if those paddlers were familar with this section, or what knowledge they had of the hazards ahead. (use Google Earth, and note the dams on this section).

 

Basing a decision to run on the assumption that's it's safe to run because others are doing it, is a bad decision.

 

The other failure was not taking into consideration the huge watershed that feeds this river. With it's hundreds of creeks, and streams the James at 320 miles in length, can go to flood stage fairly quickly. Gotta check those upstream gauge levels.

 

Also, as this Crew was from Hampton (around a 4+ hour drive to Snowden)it's very likey they were not familar with the area, and had not worked out an alternative plan should their primary been unworkable. A good Plan B would be an hour drive south to Long Island, putting in on the Staunton, for a 11 mile, Class II run to Brookneal, plus an hour closer back to Hampton from the take out.

 

However, the better choice would of been to simply pack up on Sunday, and gone home...Rockbridge Gazette ....the Scouts had begun their trip on Saturday in Buchanan and had camped overnight near Glasgow.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Le Voyageur)