Faith and Scouting

[Vicki 11]

scoutldr, thanks.

 

scoutldr wrote, "But we'll have to agree to disagree. "

 

But it's not about you and I - we don't necessarily disagree, as I see it. But then, I'm not WELS, either.

 

"If the BSA were to presume to tell me what my "duty to God" was, I would hand them my resignation in a heartbeat. As long as I don't declare myself to be an atheist, they are happy to take my money. WELS could add additional membership requirements if it so chose."

 

I think you're still seeing it from the BSA perspective, not the WELS perspective. As far as WELS is concerned, associating themselves with the BSA would be to condone BSA's "religious flexibility" and they can't do that. It's not about them redesigning the program or adding membership requirements. It's a lot like when the LCMS officer got in trouble for participating in an interfaith worship service - it was the association with other faiths in worship and the message of equality in faith that his participation sent that got him in trouble.

 

Vicki

 

 

 

 

 

[GoldFox 10]

Found the rules and regs at this website http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919606/Rules-and-Regulations-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America. They are from 2007. Charter and bylaws are at http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919588/Charter-and-Bylaws-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America

[scoutldr 726]

Wow, GoldFox...I'm impressed. For some reason, I envisioned something more than 27 pages of plain English. Kinda anticlimactic.

[Eagledad 2777]

>>You got to be kidding, outside of the LDS church no religious group provides large financial support to the BSA.

[Kudu 186]

GoldFox writes:

 

"Maybe I misunderstood, but I never saw scouting as a religious organization."

 

In the United States, Congress established the BSA as the Boy Scout corporate winner. The BSA uses that government establishment to define "Scouting" as a religious organization, See:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/bsa_religious_organization.htm

 

GoldFox writes:

 

"It has a minor part in the Mission and Vision of the BSA as it relates to the Scout Oath and Law. However, I always saw this program as much more about helping to guide young people into being better citizens - not preparing them for a religious ministry."

 

In return for its monopoly on Scouting, the BSA agreed to obey its real "mission statement," the "Purpose" defined by the Congressional Charter:

 

"Sec. 30902. Purposes

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

99% of the BSA's problems could be solved by following Baden-Powell's admonition to keep Patrols separated by at least 100 yards. But compare that kind of Scoutcraft thinking to the BSA's usual justification for moving away from the "old-fashioned" ideas that establish its monopoly:

 

"Mission Statement: The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

John-in-KC writes:

 

"I like the old-1911 explanation of the 12th point of the Scout Law (yes, Rick, thank you for your comparison page)."

 

You are welcome, John.

 

The Scout Law explanation comparison page can be found at:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/scout_law/chart.htm

 

BadenP writes:

 

"I still say without the 12 point of the scout law and the DRP you would even see a large increase in membership."

 

As you can see in the above URL, Baden-Powell originally wrote nine Scout Laws. When the BSA reduced them to single-word laws, it added Brave, Clean, and Reverent. B-P then added "A Scout is clean in thought, word, and deed," but passed on Brave and Reverent. He did say that there was an "unwritten" 11th Scout Law: "A Scout is not a fool."

 

Eagledad writes:

 

"And, if you really think that stepping away from the religious context of scouting would increases the numbers, you only need to look at the recent history of the Canadian scouts, Girl Scouts and Camp Fire Kids. Loses from political activism are minimal compared to loses resulting from even suggesting lowering the bar on the program's moral values, which is how it would be interpreted."

 

I'm not a statistics person, but I have always attributed the decline of Scouts Canada to their abandonment of the Traditional Scout program following the Advance Party Report in 1966. Traditional Scouting advocates in Canada envy the BSA's comparatively intact Tenderfoot through First Class Advancement Method, despite the BSA's desire to be all things to all people: In 1972, "We can be popular with 'urban youth' if we just get rid of all the camping requirements (Those people don't like camping, right?)" And now in 2009 "We can be popular with Hispanics if we just turn Scouting into soccer (Those people don't like camping, right?)"

 

Likewise the Girl Scouts and Camp Fire Kids don't offer real Scouting either.

 

It should be noted that when American religious liberals (Unitarian congregations, at least) think about ways to pass their values on to the next generation, camping once a month is not an option. This is NOT a chicken or the egg thing concerning the BSA's controversial policies, as religious liberals claim.

 

It has always been that way in the United States. In fact UUA membership in the BSA spiked only one time in the last century, the year after the BSA destroyed its Traditional Scouting program in 1972. This anti-get-your-knees-dirty value system is exactly the opposite of countries like Germany, where the many competing Scouting associations are mostly all religious liberals.

 

I have tried to understand that cultural difference for ten years and I still do not have a clue.

 

Kudu

[BadenP 93]

Sorry Barry

What happened with Canadian scouting and CampFire was not about religion but more about a lack of vision and incompetent management internally. I never said do away with religion entirely but rather tone it down from "you better be or else" mentality to a more generic stance. The Methodist Church did not give huge money to the BSA, but contributed to their own organization to promote scouting within the Methodist Church, which is fine cuz thats what the Catholics and Lutherans do as well.

 

Secondly do you really think morality only exsists within the confines of religion? Take a look at ancient and modern Christian history and you will find some of the most immoral acts ever committed on humanity in large numbers, done in the name of God. Your argument is not a tenable or logical one. Morality in order to thrive or survive has to be an interwoven and deeply integrated part of a culture, not just preached from a pulpit for half an hour on Sunday.

[Eagledad 2777]

>>What happened with Canadian scouting and CampFire was not about religion but more about a lack of vision and incompetent management internally.

[HICO_Eagle 93]

Thanks a lot for the references Kudu. Your website is fantastic.

 

I guess I fall in a bit of a middle-ground here. I think pulling back on its moral core will hurt Scouting by driving away its base of people who value tradition and traditional values. BSA would likely see the kinds of fractures that are evident in the Episcopal Church today. On the other hand, I never really saw BSA as a proselytizing religious organization -- yes, some units were more religious or denominational than others but almost all units I've run into were pretty welcoming.

 

My troop when I was a Scout interpreted the 12th Law as the Scout needing to believe in SOMETHING. It didn't matter whether you worshiped Jehovah, Yahweh, Manitou, Buddha, Zeus, Gaea or even Newton's Clockmaker as long as you believed in some kind of Higher Power to moderate your behavior. I still prefer that philosophy in Scouting; I got pretty annoyed at my first summer camp as an adult Scouter because the chaplain that led the opening service used a very denominational prayer and I had two Jewish boys in my troop.

 

Thanks for all the discussion ...

[BadenP 93]

Barry it must be nice to view the world through rose colored glasses. The truth is what you claim may be the ideal but it is not the reality of the human condition. Simplistic platitudes like "who has the biggest stick", do little in getting to the root of the problem. I agree with you that the BSA should have morals as part of the program of developing good scouts, but the DRP and BSA definition of what religion is acceptable is more derisive and narrow than it should be. Are you claiming that the true source of morality is the Christian faith? If so then you are denigrating all the other faith traditions.

[Eagledad 2777]

>>Are you claiming that the true source of morality is the Christian faith? If so then you are denigrating all the other faith traditions.

[BadenP 93]

Oh contrare Barry, Christian is a more generic term covering a myriad of denominations many of whom disagree with each other as to what a Christian really is. It is for that reason IMHO that religious doctrines can and do get in the way of cultivating a healthy scouting program. The BSA has become much to much dependant on churches as sponsors, so if a jewish boy wants to join a catholic troop odds are he will at least be exposed to that faith more than his parents would want and thats where the trouble begins.

 

I for one agree strongly with interfaith services on campouts, etc., and those who disagree don't really understand what the DRP really says. For all you Catholic scouters out there Pope John Paul II in his book Thresholds of Hope states that "all faiths contain semi verbi", which translates to seeds of truth. Religious intolerance is as strong as ever and is a serious roadblock to scouting having a serious religious component to its program.

[nolesrule 58]

"The BSA has become much to much dependant on churches as sponsors, so if a jewish boy wants to join a catholic troop odds are he will at least be exposed to that faith more than his parents would want and thats where the trouble begins. "

 

Oh, it can get pretty wacky. Being Jewish myself, I was part of a troop chartered to a United Methodist Mens Club. Thanks to me, my brother, a cousin and a few friends, about 20% of the troop was Jewish. My dad was an ASM with the troop for about 10 years, and when I was 17, the troop even signed up a Jewish SM for 3-4 years (and he's still an active member of the committee). There was one point where my dad looked into starting up some units through our synagogue, but it interfered too much with the USCJ formal youth programs which are co-ed (this was before Venturing crews, which I think would have worked well paired with the high school age youth program).

 

Back then the district, council and OA Lodge would make more accomodations for Jewish scouts and scouters, mainly because of the Jewish boys and adults in my troop were regular active participants in events. Now, as a UC, I don't see that anymore. You'd be hard-pressed to find any non-Christians in the programs and I think the reliance on religious institutions as sponsors has a lot to do with that.

 

This weekend is Section Conference (SR-4) and we are the host lodge. I'm sure there will be a Sunday morning prayer service. I've been to a number of the watered down non-denominational prayer services over the years, and it just feels too much like a church service for me to be comfortable, regardless of how many non-Christians at the National Council approved it. I will be bringing my siddur, tallit and tefillin in order to worship on my own terms, quietly before breakfast each morning .... and I'll be passing on the sausage and bacon.

[John-in-KC 311]

Thank you for honoring your own faith, nolesrule.

 

One important note: Yes, I'm passionate about faith. I'm equally passionate about the Outdoors Method. Our program isn't weekly Troop meetings. It's getting the youth to have fun and be self-reliant folk, using all the tools a wilderness life classroom has to offer.

 

Get the youth out in the field. Let the families and the churches/synagogues take care of faith. When there is a District/Council event, look at the needs of the audience.

 

My only direct comment to you, nolesrule, is if the Council Relationships Committee is not meeting the needs of Jewish (any group) of Scouts, then a short note saying "I am scandalized" and laying the matter out is in order. In the case of the Lodge, a cc of that note to the Staff Adviser, the Adviser, and the youth Chief would be in order as well. Let them know they are not meeting their obligations.

 

I know it'd be tough to plan an observant Ordeal... but golly gee, I think during the week at Scout Camp comes to mind...

[nolesrule 58]

Thanks for taking my comments at face value. I hope it didn't come across as a rant, as that was not intended. I am going to follow responses in your other thread you started based on my post.

 

It's one thing to be able to accommodate a few large minority religious troops in urban areas. But when you get to the suburbs and rural areas, you'd be hard pressed to find the same. We all know that most boys do not ever become scouts and not all cub scouts become boy scouts. Take that same regression and apply it to a small segment of the population in a non-urban density area and you become hard pressed to find those minorities at all in scouting. And when all the COs are churches, that makes it even more difficult.

 

There are many observant Jews who hold the line of thinking that the appearance of violating Jewish law is just as bad if you actually did because someone else might think you actually did. Or, to give an example, eating soy bacon or sausage is the same as eating the stuff that comes from a pig because someone could assume it's the real thing. Along the same lines, that would mean a Jew should not enter a church, no matter for a wedding, funeral, Scout event or even voting, because someone could assume they are there to worship.

 

Now, I'm not that strict, or I wouldn't be serving as a UC for units at a United Methodist Church and a Roman Catholic Church.

 

Heck, if I knew I could get 10 Jews at a district, council or OA weekend, I'd be willing to organize a minyan for them and even bring a Torah for Shabbat services... you need 10 to have a formal service, otherwise it's just a handful of individuals praying individually at the same location. But from what I've seen the last 4 years since I've put the uniform back on, the numbers just aren't there, and I find that disappointing.

 

And yes, I have thought of trying to start a Jewish unit in the council, but I've gone over the pros and cons in my head a dozen times and doubt I could get it to work for various reasons (and that would be a thread unto itself).

 

Besides, I have a 2 year old daughter and a bun in the oven, so my hands are full these days.