Faith and Scouting

[John-in-KC 311]

GoldFox wrote...

 

Maybe I misunderstood, but I never saw scouting as a religious organization. Does duty to one's religion/God play a part, yes! But it should not be the overriding factor in everything that is done, unless your CO requires that it be. It has a minor part in the Mission and Vision of the BSA as it relates to the Scout Oath and Law. However, I always saw this program as much more about helping to guide young people into being better citizens - not preparing them for a religious ministry.

 

I always believed that one's religion is a private and personal matter. I was taught to respect other religions but also not to push mine down the throat of others. Is it asking a lot to have others do the same?

 

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From the Declaration of Religious Principle (Article IX of R&R of BSA): Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

 

BSA is supposed to be non-sectarian. It should not favor Lutherans, Muslims, Hindu, Catholics, Methodists, American Indian polytheists, Orthodox, Buddhists, Shinto, ...

 

It should support families and churchs as they help each youth member move him along his faith trail to adulthood. That to me is vital. We're not a religion unto ourselves.

 

OK, Scouting expects me not to prosletyze or evangelize. Got it. In turn, don't expect me to sit through watered down mixmastered "worship."

 

I like the old-1911 explanation of the 12th point of the Scout Law (yes, Rick, thank you for your comparison page). It was the one that I learned in 1968:

12. A SCOUT is REVERENT. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties, and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion.

 

Respect the convictions. I'm gladly willing to sit down, at campfire, and talk about how our faiths interact. I'm equally willing to have a libation and talk about it in a comfortable setting. I'm gladly willing to sit down in Sunday School, and do ditto. I'm even willing to accept an invitation to see your worship in practice, but understand my mind is in learn mode, not worship mode.

 

One of my bright lines is being expected to actually worship in your practices. That's for you to do. I'll gladly give you time and space so to do. I ask you give the same gift to me.

 

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To wrap up, there is at least one Christian denomination in the US that will not participate in Scouting because of the faith issue. It's the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Here's their explanation:

 

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=17&cuItem_itemID=10896

 

"We cannot participate in Scouting because the oath or promise is a mandatory part of Scouting which cannot be omitted. This promise implies that people of any religion can do their duty to God, even apart from faith in Christ. It is clear in Scripture that we cannot do our duty to God by works and that people who do not believe in Christ cannot do works which are pleasing to God because they lack the right motive. We would not be giving a clear confession to the gospel if we participated in such a system. We cannot have a proper understanding of our duty to God if we have a confused view of the relationship of law and gospel. Scouting is an attempt to use the law without understanding the gospel. Further evidence of this is provided in the answers on Scouting in the archive section of this site. Examples follow:

 

The Boy Scouts are among the most respected organizations in this country, and the skills, activities, and companionship which they offer could be a benefit to any child. Yet for more than 60 years the Wisconsin Synod has warned its members that their children should not participate in the scouting program.

 

Our basic objection to scouting was that the required promise and law contain religious elements which imply that the Scout can do his duty to God regardless of what religion he belongs to. This contradicts the clear statements of Scripture that no one can perform works pleasing to God without faith in Christ."

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As a Lutheran in the LCMS, I'm glad I have the freedom to be a Scouter, to serve our youth, to prepare them for adulthood. If asked, I will share my belief. Otherwise, my faith, while an inherent part of me, is also something that is practiced in how I live my life, and my worship is within my own time, or within my own community.

 

Sorry this is so long, but it's a passion.)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, it's also worth sayin' that while the BSA as a program materials and resources provider is non-sectarian, that doesn't necessarily apply to those who are actually providing and running unit programs. Many of our partners are sectarian churches, and they run sectarian scouting programs.

 

I think the Wisconsin synod fails to understand this properly, which is a shame. What the BSA chooses to believe as materials provider is as irrelevant as what your food service contractor chooses to believe. It's still your building, your program, your values. You're just gettin' the materials from a provider who also caters programs at other churches.

 

Rather than tellin' their members not to participate in BSA scouting, I think WELS should charter their own BSA units. But I reckon there are some that will only buy materials from folks in their own community, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC 311]

B,

 

Thank you for that good and true point.

[scoutldr 726]

Following on what John and Beavah wrote, I have seen many examples of sectarian Scouting. When our district RT and OA meetings were held in the social hall of the LDS church, we were forbidden from providing refreshments that contained caffeine (coffee and soda) and smoking was prohibited on the church property. Were they forcing me to practice their religion? I felt yes, although it didn't kill me to drink caffeine-free soda. Meetings are now held elsewhere. We have a mega-Pack and troop chartered to a Presbyterian church (of the charismatic variety - I don't know the term). Their troop neckers have the Christian cross prominently displayed, every meeting is opened and closed with prayer and Cubs from their Pack mostly ONLY cross over to their troop. If a Jewish or Muslim kid wanted to join his friend's unit, I doubt he would be made to feel very welcomed. We also had a Ship chartered to a Muslim group that had ONLY muslim members. They practiced their faith, including prayers 5x a day facing Mecca.

 

Not to imply there's anything wrong with any of that. But I have to agree with Beav, that the WELS is being very short-sighted. Just because the BSA accomodates Jews and Muslims, doesn't mean that the WELS would be abdicating their faith by chartering a unit.

[Vicki 11]

Scoutldr wrote, "Just because the BSA accomodates Jews and Muslims, doesn't mean that the WELS would be abdicating their faith by chartering a unit. "

 

But they would be abdicating their faith..."Our basic objection to scouting was that the required promise and law contain religious elements which imply that the Scout can do his duty to God regardless of what religion he belongs to."

 

They have a very basic and, in their eyes, not unreasonable view here. As an organization, the BSA does promote the viewpoint that a Scout can do his duty to God irrespective of a scout's religious beliefs, as long as he has religious beliefs. As far as the WELS are concerned, this is anathema, therefore they cannot be associated with it. I respect them for not sticking their heads in the sand. I have no problem with that, any more than I have a problem with anyone else who may have deeply held convictions or orientations that conflict with the basic premises of scouting and decide, on the basis of their convictions, that they cannot be associated with scouting.

 

Beav, just as an aside, I think the comparison of the BSA as a provider on the order of a food service contractor is a tad disingenuous. A food service contractor does not ask its clients to sign an application indicating you subscribe to a Declaration of Religious Principle, nor does a food service contractor provide you with training materials with 12 points of the scout law - the last of which is "reverent."

 

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

[CalicoPenn 729]

WELS is simply an example of "Our worship is the true and correct way - everyone else is wrong" form of religion which we've seen expressed in this forum before.

[BadenP 93]

Sometmes I think that the whole scouting program would run a whole lot smoother and be a whole lot more welcoming if both the 12th point of the scout law and the DRP would just be eliminated from all BSA materials. Change the 12th point of the scout law to read "Respectful", to respect others different from myself, and to respect the beauty and sanctity of nature.

 

 

Just my 2cents worth.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[scoutldr 726]

But then, Baden, the BSA would cease to exist when the major religious bodies withdrew their substantial financial support.

 

Vicki, well put. But we'll have to agree to disagree. Don't we (BSA) also say that what constitutes a Scout's "duty to God" is a matter to be decided among the Scout, his family and church? I interpret that to mean if the WELS states what it expects from members of its chartered units as far as duty and beliefs, they are free to do so, and the prospective members can accept it...or not. There is a troop down the street that will welcome them. If the BSA were to presume to tell me what my "duty to God" was, I would hand them my resignation in a heartbeat. As long as I don't declare myself to be an atheist, they are happy to take my money. WELS could add additional membership requirements if it so chose.

[SSScout 1615]

I tell ya, we need a "Religion and Chaplaincy" forum...

 

J-K-C, I thank you for your passion. It adds to my knowledge of the wonderful mix that is BSA (or isn't). I've often wondered if there was a counter proof to the supposition that religion always supported Scouting. BSA attempts to use the respectful 'agree to disagree' that exists between the various faiths in the world and ,voila, here's the LCWS that stands up and says "no, we can't and here's why".

 

I've often been asked, "do you have to be Christian to be a Boy Scout?". I've never been asked any variant of that ("do you have to be Jewish, Lutheran, Muslim, Pagan, etc.....?"). This must indicate something.

Beavah: I tend to agree with the franchise/contractor model for Scouting, but when the possible franchisee doesn't think the BSA model is close enough to their idea of a youth program, then it gets adapted (Royal Rangers comes to mind). Maybe it isn't inclusive enough. Campfire is an alternative.

 

It does get interesting when we are asked to "encourage the boy's faith" and find out that we are not supposed to encourage him in OUR faith.

 

Again, please note the subtle change in the 12th point's published definition in 1972.

 

"...and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." (1911 til 1972)

"...He respects the beliefs of others." (1972 to present)

 

I think the LCWS's stance is wonderful. It contrasts nicely with certain other groups that would rather change the BSA to suit themselves instead of inventing another choice. Question: does the LCWS have an alternative youth program, male or female, for those seeking a scoutlike opportunity?

[John-in-KC 311]

I wish I knew what the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans have, if anything. At one point they were trying to start their own spinoff, but I never worried about it much.

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Here's one of the challenges I have: Units under church charter are not supposed to prosletyze for the kids that come in from the street. I agree on not prosletyzing, but I think the chartered partner should be able in worship settings (in camp Sunday morning) to say "this is what we believe."

 

Of course, that goes right along with the duty of a chartered partner to be active in the life of its units.

 

I still remember the camping checklists of my youth: Bible, hymnal or missal were regular checkoffs.

 

If this stuff was easy, we'd have the answers already I enjoy sharing and listening to folks here.

 

BTW, I've said in other places, and I say so here: In the context of our shared Scouting experience, if you are something that doesn't look like my faith, that's OK. We're here to help families raise their kids.

 

I simply ask that when I do worship, you understand that my God has His own thoughts about my beliefs

[BadenP 93]

scoutldr,

 

You got to be kidding, outside of the LDS church no religious group provides large financial support to the BSA. While they may be CO's thats about as far as it goes. I still say without the 12 point of the scout law and the DRP you would even see a large increase in membership. Those CO's that are churches could still pontificate to their members, but you might be surprised by just how few would even be upset by dropping the DRP. Anyhow it is time for the BSA to find other great organizations to become sponsors, especially if they are serious about still being around in 50 or 100 years from now. Religion in the BSA should be limited to a general definition and not promoting the beliefs of a single group or denomination of believers.

[GoldFox 10]

BadenP - I totally agree with you. We have quite a few units in my district chartered by churches and other than the LDS units not a one pushes a religious program. In fact, some are barely providing a meeting place for their units.

 

I am getting tired of the big focus on religion with some of our leaders and less on the other points of the scout law. They seem to over look behavior issues with the youth but go crazy about religious services at events. Just boggles my mind.

[GernBlansten 10]

I've always been a proponent of dropping the DRP and allowing a local option for membership restrictions. COs could be as restrictive or open as they see fit. Would solve a lot a problems. But there's no need to drop the 12th point. As written and defined by the BSA, I think its just fine.

[GoldFox 10]

John - were does one get a copy of the BSA Rules and Regulations? I could not find it on their website.

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

As Beavah has said, you ask your friendly Professional Service DE for a copy.

 

That said, you can find the DRP in ACP&P #33088, as well as the youth and adult apps, as well as the Manual for Chaplain's Aides...

 

ACP&P has selected portions of R&R as regards the DRP in R&R format.