Why do leaders quit?

[Twocubdad 665]

Lack of support.

 

Much of this has been mentioned by others, but I think the support should be coming from three locations.

 

Parents -- Since I'm obviously on one side of this fence I have a hard time understanding parents who have absolutely no involvement in the program. Hardly slow down to let their kids out of the car at den meeting, then show up at pack meetings and sit in stoney silence on the back row. I know some folks can be intimidated or "don't know how to help" but how cool would it be if two moms approached a DL in mid and said "we think the last den meeting before summer should be a cookout. You don't have to do anything, just show at the park and we'll handle everything." Wouldn't that be cool? And what parent can't throw together a picnic for 8 kids?

 

Pack -- too often pack leadership is too involved in other stuff to really support the DLs and/or expect the DLs to be involved in running all the pack activity. Pack leaders should be out front feeding ideas and activities to the DLs, not expecting the DLs to provide programming for pack meetings or pack campouts. The old idea of having a Den Leader Coach at each level is one that packs should strive for, even if it's no longer an official position.

 

District/Council/BSA generally -- training is long on policy and procedure and way to short on "now what do I do with these 8 kids?" More focus needs to be given to Pow Wow-type training and Roundtable meetings that provide program help, not just announcement regarding Popcorn Sales and Woodbadge.

 

Someone mentioned that the number one reason leaders quit is that their boys just age out. Well duh. I think more effort needs to be given to developing the leadership format where DLs stick with a program and not moving up from year to year. That allows leaders to use programs more than once and not feel like they're constantly re-inventing the wheel. But the feeling that parents are in the program to spend time with their own son is a strong one. I don't know how to overcome that or if overcoming that connection is even a desirable direction.

[Lisabob 13]

Reason to quit - get sick of dealing with nut cases like we've seen in some other recent threads. I had one lady who used to call me every couple of weeks and leave LONG, SHOUTING messages on my answering machine about how awful we were to her kids (who were, of course, little angels). When I set a shorter time on the message tape so as to cut back on her rants, she switched to sending me lengthy emails, all in caps of course, about the horrible things we were perpetrating on her children. And then she'd call me day and night to see whether I'd received her emails.

 

Needless to say, she never helped run things and could not be counted on to follow through on anything at all. Her boys will likely get Eagle though, and I sure hope I'm not asked to sit on their BORs because they're both rude, arrogant, inconsiderate individuals, and bullies too.

 

She (and others like her) were a major factor that contributed to my desire to be done with cubs and all the stupid drama that goes with it.

 

 

[SctDad 10]

Lisa

 

You have thicker skin than I do. If any parent called me yelling and screaming, I would ask them to stop calling until they can act like adults. Cut and dry. I am a volunteer, and I don't deserve to be treated like that.

[DeanRx 69]

The mentor thing for new DL's is a VERY good idea and one that we try to do in our pack.

 

Its twofold - its gives the new DL someone to ask questions. Hopefully this mentor is the person who was the Tiger DL last year, so all the issues are fresh in their head. Second, it leaves the CM and CC out of the equation so they can do what they're supposed to be doing which is plan and execute pack program.

 

As an aside (ANYONE LURKING FROM AUSTIN - LISTEN UP....) BSA needs to do away with the "go-see-it" stuff in the Tiger year. I understand the intent, but to expect a green leader to organize, submit the tour permits / paperwork, and coordinate 5 field trips for their den is asking a GREAT deal of someone very new to the program. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to coordinate a date / time for 5 to 7 kids and PARENT PARTNERS to all be able to do the same activity (especially when said activity often must be done during regular office hours M-F)? How many TV or radio stations have tours on the weekends? I live in a major metro market and ALL of them would only do a tour during business hours. In a two income family - Johny just isn't going th make the "go-see-it" (or mom or dad has to take time off work to make the trip). Honestly, its not until Web 2 that a similar expectation is placed on a DL. At least in Webs, the DL only needs two deep leadership to make the outing a "go" - in Tigers, its one adult for every scout! 99% of Wolf and Bear rank achievements can be completed in regular den meetings! Why make the newest leaders go manage 5 trips right out of the blocks? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

I completely agree with Twocubdad - the DL's should be respnsible for their DEN's program (use the program helps or roundtable minutes and its fool-proof). The CC, the committee, and the ACM, CM should be doing the pack wide program (i.e. pack shows, pack campouts, pack outings, B&G, PWD). The DL's serve as supporters in those events, but should not be planning them or the major player in managing them. If that is the case, your unit deserves better from the CC and CM.

 

Aging out is one thing - I've never heard of a DL quiting mid-year. Going to the committee at the end of the school year and saying they can't / don't want to be DL for the following year, yes... but cutting out mid-year on a Den ?!?!? That's very disappointing leadership.

 

If you have issues with folks bolting mid-year, you MUST do exit interviews and find out WHY? Maybe have a non-leader on the committee (i.e. not the CM or CC) do them, in case they are the issue (which in most cases, the ooutgoing DL is not going to tell you). Do you have a pack trainer? What about the committee member that chaired the popcorn sales? Have a set question sheet, so if the person wants - they can just reply via e-mail or form letter, so they don't have to talk to anyone. Some people don't handle confrontation very well and would likely be more candid on a form, than speaking face to face or via phone.

 

Bottom line - if you have DL's jumping out mid-year and its not because of a major life change (i.e. job change, had a baby, moving out of town, divorce, etc...) then you need to find out WHY.

[scoutldr 726]

I am reminded of "Coach Roz"...one of my son's first baseball coaches (about 8-9 years old boys). At our very first practice, we all sat on the bleachers as she delivered this speech, "My name is Coach Roz and I don't know the first thing about baseball, but I'm here because no one else would step up. If you have anything to say or don't like what I'm doing, you can put on a cap and get out here and help me. Otherwise, I don't want to hear it." My 30 year old son still says she was one of his best coaches.

[Lisabob 13]

Yep, I like those "Coach Roz" types too!

 

Scoutdad, we had told her to stop calling, but she did not. Short of contacting the police I'm not sure anything else would have stopped her - she's one of "those." So I just deleted her messages. At the time I wasn't aware that people could be removed from a unit and the pack was in such disarray that I might not have pursued that even if I had known - we had a problematic CO and a bunch of other fish to fry. We did throw her out of our den meetings though, after she showed up one night smelling of alcohol and proceeded to pull her screaming fit in front of the boys. At that point I actually felt sorry for her kids.

 

Dean, perhaps this is a matter of how your council does things, but those Tiger Go-See-Its should not be burdensome for a Tiger DL. For one thing, going to other places takes the pressure off the DL to actually host and run the meeting (you're going to the Fire Station? Great! The folks there will probably do a little spiel, then let the kids climb all over an engine. Den meeting done.). For another, the parent "Tiger Teams" can be told that each of them is in charge of one meeting, which might be a Go-See-It. And finally, at least in my council, local tour permits would not be required for the typical G-S-I. They're only require when we go out of council and frankly, the intent of the G-S-I is that they be done in the local community, obviating any need for a tour permit. Maybe your council uses local tour permits differently. In that case, have one of your more experienced leaders help the TDL by filing the tour permit for them.

 

 

[DeanRx 69]

Yeah Lisa-

 

Maybe it is how our local council does things... b/c we have been told in no uncertain terms that a local tour permit must be filed w/ council anytime any part of your unit (unit as a whole or a den) holds a meeting or outing at a location other than its normal meeting place! I've filed tour permits to take a den on a hike in the local trails within 5 blocks of my home, when my home was the "normal" meeting location for the den... go figure?

 

I still think its a lot to coordinate for someone who is very new to the system. Many of the places you are supposed to try and visit (i.e. police / fire department or TV / radio station / newspaper) can only give tours on a M-F from 8 to 5pm. Like I said - if any one Tiger lives in a two working parent home, they aren't going on the trip.

 

The set-up works great if everyone still lived like June and Ward Cleaver and every kid went home after school to a parent in the house (usually mom). The fact that Tigers is cub-adult partnership basically forces most dens to hold den activities after work hours (5:30 pm or later) or on weekends in order to have parental participation. In the two short years I have been active, I know of no Tiger den meeting out of 3 dens that has ever taken place M-F after school for this very reason. Some families fall into the stay-at-home parent description, but most (for better or worse) do not anymore.

 

With or without a tour permit - it presents a significant hurdle for a new leader in the unit.

 

OK - off my soapbox and back on topic....

[Lisabob 13]

Again, maybe it is a local thing Dean. I know of no dens (of any age) who meet right after school anymore. They all meet on evenings/weekends for the reasons you described. Somehow our Tigers still manage those Go See Its pretty well.

 

As for your council's tour permit policy - it is goofy! Talk to them! Explain the impact it is having on your Tiger DLs. The good news is that it is a local interpretation because I assure you, my council doesn't do that. So, it can be changed locally, too.

 

One of the things we did for new leaders was to put together a community resource book of places to go on field trips (or Go See Its), good ideas for belt loops and webelos activity pins, etc., complete with contact information. Reinventing the wheel is really a problem for new leaders. Experienced folks in the pack can help with that.

 

 

[packsaddle 753]

My answer is: "for whatever and eny reason they choose" - pretty much the same as the reasons BSA can give for ejecting us. Yeah, I know it's glib but the answers are so varied and personal to each case that it can't really be pinpointed. Might be better to ask, 'Why does a leader stay?' and then use those answers to address those who decide to leave.

 

Anyway, I'd add to the list, "Skin too thin"

We have to remember that when a parent calls, yelling about one thing or another, they have really handed control over to you. If you keep your head and calmly and objectively address the concern, it has a good chance to disarm the tirade because underneath it all, those parents are really working for the benefit of the boys, same as us. It's up to us to turn something that looks and feels like antagonism into a team effort.

[Scouter&mom 10]

My first thought is how were those DL's recruited? A big point of dissension in our council is the CE expects when we do school night recruiting for us to recruit adults too. That we should tell the parents that we need at least two adults from each age level to sign up that night, so we can have a den for their son. These adults sign up and pay the partial years registration, just to appease him and their son so they can get out of there. We sign up a lot of boys and adults at school nights who never show up for a meeting, or only come for a couple and then decide Scouts isn't for them. The den leaders who signed up under that kind of pressure generally haven't been dependable for us, like the adults who sign up because they truly care about their son being in Scouts.

[HICO_Eagle 93]

Thanks for the list Kudu. I won't say I agree with all 86 reasons (I don't) but I sure empathize with a ton of them! I am in Scouting as an adult to payback what I got out of it as a boy but I have to say the changes I'm seeing out of National or even my local Council drive me nuts. I want to think they are making these changes with the best of intentions but I really don't like a lot of them. The Eleventh Edition of the Scout Handbook is so bad I'm thinking about running to the thrift stores to find copies of the Tenth Edition or earlier and buying them up to hand out. So many ridiculous new training mandates (don't get me wrong, a lot of it is great for the adults who weren't Scouts as kids but it's superfluous and annoying for for someone with 35 years of Scouting behind him or who is taking YPT and SSD for the umpteenth time).

 

To answer the original question, I've seen a number of reasons leaders quit. Sometimes they feel they owe the time they spend on Scouting to their own families. Sometimes their leadership style doesn't mesh with the troop committee or the boys or the charter organization. Sometimes they are burned out by Council/Committee/Boys/FoS/Roundtable/etc. You/we can't do anything about the Scouter who quits to spend more time with his or her family -- and probably shouldn't -- but sometimes the committee should examine its own ego.

 

I just heard from SM at a troop where I assisted many years ago. He's getting on in years but recently had a large portion of the troop depart to form a new troop. They left nearly overnight without advance notice and the stated reason (they apparently didn't even have the cojones to do it in person so they left voice mail or a note) was that they didn't think they could get much from an SM with physical infirmities. No, I guess they or their boys couldn't get much from someone with 50+ years of experience because he was no longer able to backpack 10 miles. (tongue firmly in cheek) I almost wish I were back there to help him rebuild the troop again but my current troop needs me -- I'm just glad for them (and Scouting) that HE hasn't quit ...

[clydesdale115 10]

My experience has been similar to many of yours. For one, our Council has said that we need a LTP any time our den goes somewhere other than its normal meeting place. You are right that it is quite burdensome on a new Tiger den leader.

 

Also we have the same sort of pressure to recruit parent leaders the same time we recruit the boys - those are the DLs who are less than reliable. In my time from Tiger to Web 2, we've had DL sign up at school night then never show to the first den meeting, or DL who comes to one or 2 meetings then Johnny decides he doesn't want to do Scouting so they just don't come back. As a den leader myself, it was hard to see where others were having difficulties, but in retrospect I believe we as a pack could do a better job breaking them in gently (like helping them with LTPs, go-see-it ideas, den meeting lesson plans, training opportunities, etc).

 

I think there is naturally more turnover in Cubs because the boys move on up to Boy Scouts. But beyond those who leave after Web 2, we could probably prevent much of that burnout by supporting them more from the start. A mentoring system that pairs experienced leaders with new ones would go a long way in keeping DLs in their position. Now that I've moved in to the Boy Scout world, I have had opportunities to go back and help a pack with this or that. I'm able to help support other leaders more now than when I was busy with my own den. Sadly, I never had a den chief during my time as a Cub leader.

 

If you are in a pack leadership role, I would suggest several things that might head off the DL exodus:

 

1. Remember they are volunteers like you, and they like to be appreciated for what they do. Those silly recognition moments at a pack meeting can mean a lot.

2. Don't sign them up then leave them hanging. Just giving them a list of 8 families to contact and a copy of the Program Helps isn't going to cut it.

3. Find someone in the pack who has been-there-done-that who is willing to answer questions, offer suggestions, just generally be a support to your new leaders.

4. Take every opportunity to have fun in Scouts! Do something silly with the leaders at a committee meeting, have energetic pack meetings, plan engaging campouts, don a goofy hat and pop into their den meeting, that sort of thing. Your DLs will see that you are glad to be there each week!

 

Just some ideas! I have to say I had a great den of boys from the start - supportive parents, great attendance, lots of fun - and they all crossed over to BS 4-1/2 years later. But other dens were not that lucky - no-show DLs, boys quitting, dens falling apart. I had the time to devote to making it fun each week but it's not for everyone - just being a parent doesn't make you a good DL.

clyde

 

[kraut-60 10]

They get fed up with sports(of all types)taking precedence over Scouts. They have heard too many times that "Johnny" has a band/orchestra/choir/play committment he MUST be at.

 

They finally get the message that all other extra-curricular activities trump Scouting...they get tired of beating their head against the wall knowing that Scouting will offer more for a youth than sports or band in helping them become better citizens for their future, while the parents (continue to) insist that the instant gratification from sports will go farther than any Scout related experience in benefiting their son....yeah, Right!