concerned scout leader

[scoutmomrn 10]

This is my first post, though I've read several threads from this network. We moved this summer to another state, thus changing packs. The new pack already had Wolf leaders, but were VERY eager for my husband and I to jump in and lead as well (we were the leaders of our sons den the year before). Our concern stems from one boy in the new den that appears to be completely preoccupied with shooting stuff and killing stuff. I'm not just talking about BSA BB gun and archery lessons or even legal hunting. From my first meeting with him, he has vocalized wanting to shoot the windows out of the church we meet at; his answers to questions during our meetings always involve killing something or hurting something; his collection to share with the den was an assortment of knives. His mom (which happens to be one of the original den leaders) just tries to quickly say "no you don't" or something to that affect. The boy dismisses it and continues to make inappropriate statements with no further response from mom. I have tried to discuss with the boy openly in front of the group including mom about the inappropriateness of his comments and the consequences of his actions, but it has been to no avail and mom seems pretty disinterested as well. The "last straw" so to speak was at our den meeting last night. We made penguins out of 2L bottles (part of our Achievement 7 activities. We put them all together and then let the kids decorate them further via paint. All of the boys did something along the lines of bow ties and American flags except this boy, who painted little red dots all over the penguins body and stated "look, I shot him". Again, mom/den leader----nothing. I don't feel threatened at this point by the boy, but I (and my husband) feel very concerned that this is just the beginning and that it certainly has the potential for detrimental affects on the den/pack---if it hasn't already. I have not seen any physical violence thus far, but I don't really want to wait for that before something is done. If it was another parent's son, I would feel like going to them and talking to them would be the best thing, but since it's a den leaders child and she witnesses it first hand and allows it, then I'm kind of past that point. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help, scoutmomrn

[Gold Winger 9]

It could be an indication of a serious problem or it could be just a phase. I'm sure that the professionals will have the "right" answer. Having been a boy who did more than a few disruptive things in my day, "discussions" never had any effect unless they included an element of fear. Fear? Being sent to the principal's office. The call to my mother. Exclusion from the group. Maybe the best thing is to tell the boy that the next time he does it, he'll be sent home and then follow up on it.

[Lem 10]

Are you and your husband opposed to knives or guns? I ask this because I think much of what you described of the behavior of this child is not necessarily disturbed or wrong-headed. Penguins are pretty ripe for boys to gag about shooting. And a craft project in which boys are told to make penguins from soda bottles would have lead me to violent thoughts as a second, third or fourth grader.

 

He has a knife collection? Cool. Collecting is a sign of intelligence. And knives are a really interesting thing to collect. What is wrong with that? Sounds like an opportunity to go over Blade safety and Tot'n Chip check offs.

Killing animals? Last time I checked it is a pretty common activity. We harvest dear and game and slaughter animals on industrial scale daily. So how is this kid not normal? Humans are killers.

 

I was impressed that the boys actually expressed out loud his wishes to break the church windows. I would have said, "When we find the windows broken, we'll know whose parents to call to pay for new ones." And then spoken about how breaking church windows is un-scout-like behavior and why.

 

Everything this kid does seem to me to bring out occasions for teaching. Is he a disturbance? Is he creating a dangerous and anxious environment for the boys (or just for you and your husband)?

 

Is he liked by the other boys- or does he seem pathologically not to care what others think of him?

Is he medicated? Does he suffer from Aspergers syndrome?

From what I have read- this seems like the kind of kid that is perfect for scouting group that gets out doors a lot and is physical. Not doing craft projects in Church basements.

 

Good Luck!

 

Jeff

 

[scoutmomrn 10]

No, we're not afraid of guns or knives. In fact, my husband has been a police officer for over 15 years. The boys' actions have raised red flags in his mind, so I don't think I'm imagining this. As I tried to explain in the original post, though maybe not effectively, his behavior seems to be above and beyond the "normal". I realize that boys have active imaginations and yes, that killing animals is part of human behavior. Anytime there is an inappropriate comment, there is a teaching discussion to go with it and yes, to the point that it does become disruptive to the rest of the group because we are constantly responding to the outbursts. I tried to high-light a few examples without going into great length about every activity we do or every incident of concern. I appreciate your thoughts and appreciate all points of view. scoutmomrn

PS: The boys had a blast with the penguin project and couldn't wait to get started. I'm sorry you're not so fond of the bird.

[Gunny2862 11]

Unfortunately since the Parent is aware, has witnessed and doesn't seem to think it is inappropriate enough to stop it, that kind of ties your hands in that direction.

 

What you can do is discuss with the Cubmaster. Or bring up disruptive behavior in a Committee meeting and discuss remedies on a pack level there, (if someone is so disruptive that we can't carry out the planned activity we reserve the right to send them home anyway). Or elevate to the Chartered Organizational Representative.

 

Or, if the child is an actual danger to himself or others, which is what you seem to be indicating(the way I'm reading it anyway) without saying so - then you are fully within the program to refer him to the Cubmaster to be sent home and kept from meetings until he is no longer a danger to himself or others. (Actually I don't think you even have to involve the Cubmaster, you can just send him home in this case - but a "heads up" notification to him would be in order if you chose this route.)

[mmhardy 10]

First off youre to be commended for showing concern. That tells me youre looking out after your charges and are concerned. As a Dad of 3 boys and also married to an elementary school principle I get exposure to these types of stories everyday.

 

Boys do this kind of thing. In the 1960s my 1st and 2nd grade friends would draw pictures of WWII planes shooting Nazis. The red crayons would be ground down to the nubs with the depictions of gore. Within our own Catholic school, Sister Andrew would display the most gruesome depictions of Christs suffering imaginable. I tell ya, to a 10 year old it was engaging stuff.

 

You need the boy to feel safe with you. If you start freaking, out all you will do is alienate the boy and his parents and accomplished nothing. Quiet authoritative and nurturing comments by you hinting that such comments are kinda creepy may be all thats needed to get the message across. The next time an inappropriate comment is made, ask questions; Why do you want to shoot out windows?, Are you a good shot?, Have you ever killed anything? Drawing out answers may lead to a general ethics and morals discussion that all the boys could benefit from. Or lead to discussions with the parents that not many like to hear. Good Luck

 

[Nike 94]

While you should bring up your concerns to your CM and maybe the CC, are you sure you don't also have a "button-pusher?" My 7 year old would do this, and does. (sigh)

[Basementdweller 608]

Crafts are good for tigers

Less so for wolves

Less so for Bears

And even less for weeblos.

[jmwalston 11]

"Crafts are good for tigers

Less so for wolves

Less so for Bears

And even less for weeblos."

 

If it is an achievement or elective from their handbook, any of it is appropriate.

[Lem 10]

Appropriate versus sucking.

Lots of things that suck are so called age or Cub appropriate. Mediocrity is made of lots of appropriate things. Boys want danger, and challenge, and don't necessarily want what is in the Cub manual or considered age appropriate by the educrats and child pyscholoquacks. . Back in 1974 our Den Mother would take us outside and let us play in her creek and look for ideas for projects. We discovered large wolf spiders under a tressel, old tombstones, giant rusty railroad spikes, bones of raccoons and cats, an old suitcase, and lots of cool beer and liquor bottles. Things were better in the seventies.

 

I have been an art teacher in public and private schools for twenty years- and I can tell you that craft projects pretty much suck. They are ugly, they teach little practical skills, they make impermanent drivel that must be secretly discarded. I say it would be cooler (if you had to make crafty things in scouts- ugh) to have the boys make model panzer tanks (paper machete) to shoot their bb guns or sling shots at and then do a study on the Battle of the Bulge.

 

Oh, I forgot- moms dont get boys anymoreAnd neither do a lot of dads.

 

 

I wish I had a knife collection.

 

Jeff

 

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Scoutmomrn,

 

Greetings!

 

IMHO. Concern is good, if its moderate.

 

If I can make an analogy, and relate it to the recent hurricanes on the Gulf Coast. If a resident leaves their home too earlier, it can (and will probably) be looted and they return with home still there but everything of value stolen and gone. If they stay, nothing will be looted or stolen, but they have a unknown risk of losing everything. Their home may be completely demolished or it may withstand the weather and come out of the hurricane as though it were a light afternoon rain. Is it worth the risk? The residents have to ask themselves that question every hurricane.

 

All boys go thru phases, many different phases, even at the Cub Scout and Webelos age. Some like to illustrate them, some prefer to play violent video games (aka first person shooter), some enjoy watching scary and bloody horror movies. Some even practice their wrestling moves in front of the TV, jumping from the high rope (back of the couch) onto their brother while watching WWE.

 

Concern is good. A Den Leader should be concerned about all the youth in the Den (or Pack), making sure that the pack is a safe haven. Reacting (or over-reacting) to illustrations and collections, would be bad on your part.

 

The boy has done nothing harmful, he hasn't stabbed a penguin or fellow Cub Scout.

 

So... Now it sounds like you don't want to wait for something to happen. "I have not seen any physical violence thus far, but I don't really want to wait for that before something is done."

 

My opinion.

 

The boy has not done anything dangerous (as you have stated). Illustrations and fantasy, yes, but no action. If I were Cubmaster or Pack Committee Chairman and heard that you were concerned, great! I would be happy that you are watching out for the entire den's well being.

 

If you over-reacted to nothing that has not occurred. If you wanted the Cubmaster or Pack Committee to take action on a boy who has not done anything yet. I would invite you to visit other Packs in the neighborhood.

 

So, I applaud your concern, and even your warnings. But similar to my analogy of a hurricane. I may decide to ride it out, and hopefully the boys fantasies die down to a tropic storm, light drizzle, or morning mist, and nothing more.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

Based on your post scoutmomrn I can't offer any advice since I don't know personally the level of the boys bent toward violence. I can offer my own experience with my younger son:

 

He has always been destructive. Not in a vandalism sense, but since he could wrap his fingers around an object he has taken things apart, smashed them to pieces, or otherwise destroyed things. Most times in an effort to see the insides of a small appliance or electronic device. That was interesting curiosity. The thing that drove me mad was after he had carefully taken something apart he then felt the need to smash it to pulp with a hammer or some other heavy object.

 

Violent depictions in pictures? Absolutely. In Cub Scouts, his den cut out and decorated wooden turtles for a turtle race. The other boys painted their turtles with varying degrees of skills and themes. My son painted his as if it had been run over by a car. Much blood and gore. For several years in middle school he drew a comic book series featuring the grim reaper. Now in high school, his favorite drawing subject is World War III or some other type of violent endeavor - usually involving the end of the world. He's 15 now and still takes things apart. Fire and explosions have crept into his repertoire.

 

He helped with space exploration merit badge at summer camp and was the 'rocket guy'. He found an outlet for controlled explosions and loved it. He even used his talents to build a shoulder mounted rocket launcher.

 

On the flip side, his creativity and imagination also show in music and art.

 

The boy's creativity and curiosity are boundless. Husband and I have tried to help him channel that curiosity without stifling it. Who knows who he will become as an adult? A chemist? A demolition expert? An engineer? Of course, I know there are some that will read this post and think the boy could become an arsonist, a terrorist, the Unibomber.

 

Right now he says he wants to study music education in college.

 

He differs from the boy you describe in that he doesn't have violent outbursts and has never vocalized or demonstrated a desire to destroy someone else's property.

 

Perhaps the boy you mention just needs an outlet.

[Frank17 10]

Reading your original post; it seems to me that you really have 2 concerns:

1. The scouts disruptive effect on your meetings, via inappropriate comments; and

2. His parents response (or lack thereof) to said comments and overall attitude towards his aggressive behavior.

 

As I am sure you know (and others have pointed out), talking or joking about violent acts is not that unusual for cub scout age boys (and boy scout age boys as well). So unless he becomes physically aggressive or destructive or bullying, I would not be too concerned about his welfare. On the other hand, his disruptive behavior MUST stop. It is now your den, not his mothers. Talk to the boy about his actions, and let him know you will be implementing a strike-out policy. If he continues to disrupt meetings with inappropriate comments, he will be required to leave that meeting. Make this policy clear to all your scouts; do not single him out. If that ticks off his parents, too bad. It is your den & you need to set the conduct rules. Consider even implementing a reward system for all your cubs who behave well during your meetings (beads, stars, stickers, with a small prize once enough are accumulated). He may feed into this and use this as a means to control his behavior.

 

As far as his parent's reaction, you will not be able to change that. It should be obvious based on the varied responses in this post that everyone has a different tolerance / concern level for violent talk. In fact, BSA promotes some of it by allowing archery, BBs, and shooting to be taught at their camps. It may be a phase or it may be an early sign of a future problem. As his parents are obviously aware of it, no need to point it out further.

[ScoutNut 147]

A couple of questions you have not answered yet -

 

How is his relationship with the other Scouts in the den?

 

Is he liked by them?

 

Have any of the other parents in the den expressed any concerns?

 

Do his actions disrupt the den meetings?

 

Is it a temporary disruption?

 

Is it a disruption to the point where the meeting can not continue?

 

Other than his off the wall comments, does he fully participate in the den meetings?

 

Does he seem to enjoy the den, and Pack, meetings?

 

 

 

Not knowing the answers to the above questions, it really makes it hard to offer suggestions.

 

From your comments you seem to be waiting for this boy to explode into violence at any second. Your comments also seem to suggest that you would like to see him removed from your den, and the Pack, as soon as possible.

 

As I said, not having first hand knowledge of the boy and his actions makes it harder to give an opinion, however, I have known boys who act in similar ways to your Scout (including the fascination with knives). Most of them have ADHD and other problems which typically are associated with ADHD. They have little impulse control, and say the first thing that flips into their mind. This is often made worse by the fact that they are usually rather shy, have a reduced self-image, and feel that if they act out they will at least get the other boys attention. These boys are usually very intelligent, creative, and because of both their intelligence and their ADHD, they get bored easily. They are all great boys, have not tortured or killed anyone or any thing, but they also represent enormous challenges for the adults who have to deal with them.

 

You state that you don't want to speak to his parents because the mother is there and does not seem to do anything. Why does that preclude you from having a FRIENDLY discussion with her? Ask her about her sons behavior and what she feels the best way would be to help him to modify it. Get her to help you with her son, instead of going over her to get her son tossed out. Having him tossed out might make YOU feel better, but it would do nothing for this boy at all except to reinforce his impression that he is somehow not "good enough".

(This message has been edited by scoutnut)

[scoutmomrn 10]

My intention has never been to "kick" the boy out of our den/pack. I'm sorry if I've given that impression to some of you. I realize it is very difficult to offer constructive advise when not witnessing the boys' or moms' behavior firsthand. It also is not "my den" solely. As I tried to explain, there are 4 leaders (which is a whole other discussion itself)--1 of which is the mom of this child. We are the outsiders of this group, so to speak, so I was looking for some outside opinions before I "jumped" in to anything. Be cautious of what you wish for is a thought that comes to mind. I am a volunteer just like the rest of you and am only looking out for the boys--all of the boys---best interests. My husband has 15+ yrs as a police officer and I have 10 yrs as an ER nurse. We have seen what happens when it's more than just a phase, which is probably why the hairs on our heads are standing up more than usual. I'm not saying that this boy is a "bad seed" or going to do something horrific some day, I am simply expressing some concern to fellow leaders in hopes that someone may have also had similar experiences and could share their "expertise". As far as answering the questions posed by the last reply: He seems to get along well with the other den leaders son (there families have an outside relationship beyond scouting). As far as the other boys, it's more like aquaintences, I guess. They get along for the meetings and then go their separate ways (this boys goes to a different school). Yes, the outbursts do disrupt the meetings--temporarily--but they are ongoing, so the meetings tend to run a little late. We are currently in the process of incorporating a reward system already to try and help the situation. No other parents have expressed concerns that I'm aware of, but we did have a boy come to the opening meeting and never return. The parent did not speak to the den leaders, but went to the CM and was very vocal about her concerns and that she didn't feel it was an environment she wanted to put her son in. We plan on having a private meeting with the CM to see if any concerns have been brought to his attention. Participation? I would have to say minimal to moderate. He has told me that he doesn't like a particular activity that we are doing and I've informed him that this is just one thing and what would he like to do. His answer is always "I want to shoot something". I've explained to him that we will be able to practice BB gun shooting at other scouting events, but.... As I've said, I'm not trying to get rid of this scout. I WANT him to succeed. I have known some scout leaders who favor some scouts over others --whether intentional or not--and it becomes evident to those on the outside looking in. My husband and I have always been praised for just the opposite--concern for all the boys and seeing that all of them progress. So again, I apologize if I've given some the wrong impression, I am just seeking sound information from one volunteer leader to another. Thanks for all the replies.