rkruse12 10 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Our troop sponsored a canoeing week-end recently on a local river. Two of the scouters borrowed an expensive canoe from a friend. During the course of the week-end the two adults swamped the canoe and ended up with the $1000 canoe damaged beyond repair. The two adults have approached the troop to replace the damaged canoe. This claim would not be covered by their personal homeowners insurance. We contacted our chartered organization without success. Does the BSA have insurance that can be purchased to cover this type of loss? An insurance agent advised me to check the charter agreement for the liabitity language prior to obtaining this insurance privately. I am curious if any other unit has had experience with this type of problem? Link to post Share on other sites
Gold Winger 9 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Let's see . . . the two guys borrowed it, used it and damaged it. They need to buy their friend a new canoe. One of the reasons that we went to troop owned tents is because of complaints when a Scout would bring his tent back damaged because boys, being boys, would do stupid things. Link to post Share on other sites
scoutldr 726 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I can't imagine borrowing an expensive canoe, damaging it and then asking the Troop to pay for it (insurance or not). In fact, I can't even imagine borrowing something that expensive for a Scout outing! No, I don't think there is any such insurance available. The two scouters need to cough up a thousand bucks. Link to post Share on other sites
ASM857 10 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Personal gear is personal, unfortunatley the scoters are responsable for the canoe. Our troop will not reimburse for damage to personal gear unless damaged in transport from improper storage by the quartwe master. If they thought it was a good idea to borrow that expensive of a conoe then they are stuck with repair or replacment cost. My 2 cents YIS Doug Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 being an inexperienced canoeist, I would like to know how they damaged that expensive a canoe by swamping it. The canoes at camp are no where close to a thousand bucks and they are swamped constantly, its one of the requirements you know. I would like to know more to be sure I don't get close to doing what was done Link to post Share on other sites
shortridge 184 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I'm curious about the extent of the damage, too. Maybe if they put their foot through an ultralight, ultrathin canoe... but just swamping it wouldn't normally damage it that much. These were adults? Shame. Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Probably swamped it then broached it on a rock (partially folded it around da rock by water pressure). That'll kill a canoe fer sure. No easy answer. Insurance for non-owned property (technically property under your care, custody, or control) ain't real common for individuals. Can even be somewhat hard to obtain for businesses. Properly speakin', this should be an insurance claim on the part of da person who owned the boat - same as if he had wrecked the boat himself. Just like if they had borrowed his car, eh? If he didn't have coverage, or had a large deductible, I think da only honorable thing to do is for the guys to pay to make him whole, eh? That's the cost of havin' "free" rentals from friends (and the cost of not paddlin' within your ability level as adults ). The only way I can see the troop indemnifying 'em is if the two were the required two adult leaders for the trip, and borrowing the canoe was the only way they could come and the trip happen for the boys. In that case, yeh might consider it. Or, if yeh look at things and you say "we really need these two adult leaders, and they're so upset about this they're goin' to quit" - maybe because right now they just can't afford that kind of hit without cuttin' back on their scouting. In such a case, maybe yeh split it with 'em. Or you do it with da understanding that they'll make an offsetting donation to the troop over the next year or two. Mostly, though, it's a matter between them and da guy who was dumb enough to lend 'em his shiny new boat, eh? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah) Link to post Share on other sites
gcnphkr 11 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Two lessons that everyone needs to learn. 1. If I borrow something and it breaks I have to fix it. It is my fault for borrowing it. 2. If I loan something and it it broken I have to fix it. It was my fault for loaning it to someone who never learned the first lesson. Of course the corollaries of these are: Never borrow something you cannot replace and never loan something you will miss.(This message has been edited by jet526) Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I agree with Beavah and I have to say I hope this trend is making him as uncomfortable as it is me. And I also liked the response by jet526. We had friends a few years ago who had to move out of their home for brief time (few weeks) during the summer so we loaned them our home while we were off on a trip. Their kids did a little damage but nothing we didn't expect. And they were so appreciative that they hired some persons to clean the house when they left. They left about a week before we returned. The cleaning crew unplugged the freezer to use the outlet. We returned to a very stinky freezer. We had to throw everything out. Hundreds of dollars of food. We made a quick decision about our friendship...and said nothing. And I have never regretted it. If I loan a canoe to someone who is going on a river, I make a calculation as to whether I can live without the canoe. I guess it just depends on who we are. Edited part: typo(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to post Share on other sites
anarchist 10 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 This is why we have our own boats... hey OGE...$1,000 is peanuts for a good modern canoe...many of my friends plunk down $1,800-$2,400 for fancy touring canoes or solo semi-ultra lights. $1,000 is a "so so" royalex 16/17 ft boat in todays market. and almost no boat likes to be wrapped around a rock with a couple of tons of water pressure doing the wrapping! and as was said above ...don't borrow what you can't replace...don't lend what you can't afford to lose! Troop owes nothing...They didn't borrow the boat, and the CO certainly did not borrow the boat. It seems to be a $500 per man lesson in canoe handling, caution and risk taking.... Even when you rent boats, you are on the hook for anything more than "normal wear and tear" some liveries do offer insurance and I have heard that you can probably find someone to write a theft or accident policy or a rider (schedule) to your homeowner policy for personal gear but probably not for troop equipment...but most likely it would be ridiculously expensive, but in this case I can't see any other way...than paying the good friend.... Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Didnt realize they could be so expensive, nor would I borrow one if I didnt think I could replace it if things went bad, I guess it depends on who we are Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 My Kevlar 'yak was way more than that and no, you can't borrow it. I've seen some good Royalex canoes wrapped so that one hand could grab both ends. We take them out, put them in the sun, let them straighten up, maybe put some presses inside to help, and replace the wood and trim, and keep on paddling. It leaves permanent creases but hey, they're eventually going to be beat to pieces anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Rythos 10 Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 By these two guys asking the Unit to cover the costs of thieir damage reminds me once again that gone are the days of personal responsibility. Ry Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Did I say I was inexperienced? I like staying on terra firma, and the more firma the terra the better Link to post Share on other sites
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